Predestination is misunderstood...

God gave us, as made in His image, faculties of hearing, intellect, conscience, discrimination, faith. he does not need to add a new faculty to us for us to believe the gospel. He gave everything we need in nascent form while forming us in the womb.

That's where Calvinism got messed up, and over simplified the answer by making God forcing us to believe by what was euphoniously labelled "irresistible grace." In doing so? It skewed what was going on with us when presented the Gospel.

That's where Calvinism got messed up, and over simplified the answer by making God forcing us to believe by what was euphoniously labelled "irresistible grace." In doing so? It skewed what was going on with us when presented the Gospel.

The answer is right there in Scripture for those who want it.
1. God has given mankind the Gospel.
2. The Holy Spirit uses the Gospel to convict and convince sinners.
3. All men are COMMANDED to obey the Gospel.
4. But God will compel no one to be saved.
5. And God will elect no one to be saved either.
6. Salvation is offered to all mankind, but all must repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Your answer is very incomplete, with all due respect. Isn't the new birth (regeneration) necessary to give life to dead souls in order that they may believe (Jn 3:1-21)?

Sorry, but I only answer to biblical scriptures from the KJV version of the bible. In my studies I believe the scriptures prove scriptures, and they are my only source of study.



John, I love to defend the doctrine of Christ, and it would help if you would give me some scriptures to help me understand where you are getting your information to support your comments.

Those in him; believers, who make up his body. The church, as a body was pre-destined to a certain fate: conformity to the image of the son of God.

Those who do not believe... have a different destination.

You and I are not pre-destined to be in or out of that body; as we have a choice to believe or not believe.

We are missing a point here.
God did not predestine us to believe.
He predestined us because He knew we would believe!

God already knows that when given his grace to free our soul from the sin nature, how we will wish to choose.
Since He already knows who will choose to believe?
God chose out from all those whom He knows will choose to believe only certain ones He destined to be born
in the OT days, and destined to be born in the Church age... and the Tribulation period...

Those whom God predestined to be born during the Church age?
By default, were predestined to be "In Christ" when they believed.

In that manner, He predestined us to be In Christ....

I hope its not complex once its explained according to what the Scripture does tell us...

Its really simple once it sinks in by grace.

grace and peace .............

Some intellectual freaks need to come down a notch or two. My humble opinion.
J.

But, if your flesh is encapsulating all those qualities? How can they function as they should?

For it says.....


Before you were regenerated your flesh enslaved your soul.


Before regeneration Grace needed to silence our flesh in order for our soul to be "made free" to choose to believe.

Without God supplying his Grace at the point of salvation? No one could believe!

That's where Calvinism got messed up, and over simplified the answer by making God forcing us to believe by what was euphoniously labelled "irresistible grace." In doing so? It skewed what was going on with us when presented the Gospel.

Grace enables our soul to be free of the flesh when we in ourselves are helpless and too weak to do what God deems as right.


Too many Christians do not know what grace is. They have romanticized its meaning, and in sentimentality have morphed it into meaning God's mercy and love. Grace is POWER! The power to believe and to live the Christian way of Life!

Grace is POWER! The power given us to believe and enabling us to live the Christian way of Life!

grace and peace .........................

You have REVERSED the sequence of events. The New Birth comes only after a person receives the gift of the Holy Spirit, and that only happens after a person repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. But it you wish to hang on the the false gospel of the Calvinists, no one will stop you.

Have you built an ark? Why not? Do you offer animal sacrifices? Why not? Have you gone to Nineveh to tell them in 40 days they will be overthrown? Why not? Should I go on?

There are divisions within the OT and there are divisions within the NT. Applying doctrine not meant for the body of Christ is dangerous. Following the wrong spokesman is dangerous.

The new birth, sir, is the gift of the Holy Spirit!

You have REVERSED the sequence of events. The New Birth comes only after a person receives the gift of the Holy Spirit, and that only happens after a person repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. But it you wish to hang on the the false gospel of the Calvinists, no one will stop you.

The new birth is being born of the Spirit, not the Spirit Himself. He doesn't give birth to Himself but gives birth to our spirit.

John 3:6
What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.

How does God's WORK work?

What does God do to get us able to believe?

grace and peace ...............

In contrast to the Jews... Gentiles were not told to repent and believe.

What kind of nonsense is this? Please take careful note: Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks* [Gentiles], repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:21)
Strong's Concordance
Hellén: a Greek, usually a name for a Gentile
Original Word: Ἕλλην, ηνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: Hellén
Phonetic Spelling: (hel'-lane)
Definition: a Greek, usually a name for a Gentile
Usage: a Hellene, the native word for a Greek; it is, however, a term wide enough to include all Greek-speaking (i.e. educated) non-Jews.

The belief in the gospel is a complex topic that has been discussed by theologians and philosophers. Some argue that belief in the gospel is produced by cognitive faculties that are functioning properly, while others emphasize the role of trust and entrusting oneself to the message of the gospel. The concept of faith is often central to this discussion, with some arguing that faith is not belief without evidence, but rather a state of trust in the gospel message.
George MacDonald, a Christian theologian, emphasized the importance of trusting the teachings of Jesus Christ and the need to learn from Christ Himself. He argued that true faith is not founded in stupidity or indifference to the truth, but in a genuine understanding of the teachings of Christ
2
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In a philosophical context, some have argued that faith is not simply belief without evidence, but rather a state of trust that involves venturing and entrusting oneself to the object of faith. This perspective emphasizes that faith always has an object and is not simply a belief without evidence
3
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The discussion of belief in the gospel and the role of faith is a complex and multifaceted issue, with various perspectives and interpretations. It involves philosophical, theological, and personal considerations, and the understanding of faith and belief can vary among individuals and religious traditions.

J.

The doctrine of irresistible grace, also known as effectual calling or efficacious grace, is a theological concept that asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom God has determined to save, and it overcomes their resistance to obey the gospel, bringing them to faith in Christ
1
. This doctrine is particularly associated with Calvinism.
Scriptural support for irresistible grace includes:

John 6:44: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

Acts 16:14: "The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul."

Ephesians 2:1-5: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ..."

Philippians 2:12-13: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

Titus 3:5: "He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."
These verses, among others, suggest that God's grace is irresistible in that it inevitably brings about the salvation of those whom God has chosen, and it is God who works in the hearts of the elect to bring them to faith

. However, it is important to note that the term "irresistible grace" does not imply that people are forced to accept Christ against their will, but rather that God's grace is so powerful that it overcomes the resistance of those whom God has chosen to save.

J.