The Error of KJV-Onlyism

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Bible_Highlighter

Bible_Highlighter

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John146 said:
Wow! A modern version can give light where the KJV may be hard to understand? Not so, my brother, not so. Stick with the KJV.

True, I will never look to a modern bible for clarification on what the word of God says.
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There is a book by D.A. Waite (KJV defender).

It’s called:

4,114 Definitions from the Defined King James Bible:

https://www.amazon.com/Definitions-Defined-King-James-Bible/dp/156848075X

It’s companion to his Defined King James Bible.

It is a list of the many archaic words in the KJV.

So there are 4,000 plus archaic words in the KJV we must know.

Keep in mind that there are a lot of other words I would clarify that are not listed by D.A. Waite.

Again, this is by no means an attack upon the KJV at all. I believe God speaks to us in parables, and in an obscure way for a reason.
He wants us to study to show ourselves approved unto God and truly appreciate the death of meaning on words that He is trying to convey to us. But I would disagree with my fellow KJV-only brethren that the KJV is easy to understand. It’s not. Reading an Old Testament story or the book of Acts can sometimes be confusing. But turn to the NLT or other translation and you quickly see what is going on. After I check it with the NLT or other translation, I then reread it again in the KJV to confirm things. For as you know, the Modern Bibles teach other truths and false doctrines. They cannot be our final word of authority. But I am not going to pretend the KJV is easy to always read when it is not.
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

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I believe there's a way to treat Archaic words in KJB. Simply just leave them there. If we want to check its meaning, good dictionaries may be consulted. Sometimes, however, KJB already defines hard words found in its context.
 
Bible_Highlighter

Bible_Highlighter

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fredoheaven said:
I believe there's a way to treat Archaic words in KJB. Simply just leave them there. If we want to check its meaning, good dictionaries may be consulted. Sometimes, however, KJB already defines hard words found in its context.
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Yes. Good sources are:

1. Oed.com (exhaustive source for listing the meaning of a word by time period).

2. Collinsdictionary.com gives you a nice wide variation of meanings.

3. Webster-dictionary.org (Webster 1913) (Wordnet dictionary) with related synonyms at the bottom.

4. KingJamesBibleDictionary.com (uses a wide variety of dictionaries including Bible dictionaries).

5. A Defined King James Bible by D.A. Waite or his 4,000 plus archaic word list book (Not always perfect but still very helpful at times).

6. BlueLetterBible.org (However caution should be used because James Strong was a part of ASV committee).

7. Modern Translations. I prefer Biblehub.com for quick verse comparisons. Granted, caution needs to exercised here because Modern Bibles also teach false doctrines.
 
Bible_Highlighter

Bible_Highlighter

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fredoheaven said:
I believe there's a way to treat Archaic words in KJB. Simply just leave them there. If we want to check its meaning, good dictionaries may be consulted. Sometimes, however, KJB already defines hard words found in its context.
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Of course context is vitally important and cross references, too. Prayer for the Spirit to give you the understanding is also key. Our walk will also affect our understanding, as well.
 
J

John146

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fredoheaven said:
I believe there's a way to treat Archaic words in KJB. Simply just leave them there. If we want to check its meaning, good dictionaries may be consulted. Sometimes, however, KJB already defines hard words found in its context.
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The best dictionary is the bible itself. It will define itself. This is the beauty of the KJV.
 
J

John146

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Bible_Highlighter said:
Of course context is vitally important and cross references, too. Prayer for the Spirit to give you the understanding is also key. Our walk will also affect our understanding, as well.
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Amen, so no need for a modern translation.;)
 
T

turbosixx

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Bible_Highlighter said:
Dictionaries can be updated by unbelievers but that does not mean we don't use them.
This is the same way I look at Modern Bibles. There have been many times when Modern Bibles have truly blessed me in my understanding of the KJV.

For example, one of the worst paraphrases that I would not even normally touch with a ten-foot pole (God's Word Translation) helped me to see what the KJV says in Colossians 2:17. The only way I saw what it says was when I happened to glance at it at Biblehub when I was comparing the different translations with the King James Bible.

Colossians 2:17 KJV says,​
"Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."​
​
Colossians 2:17 GW says,​
"These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body [that casts the shadow] belongs to Christ."​

It helped illustrate the picture in my mind of Christ's body was standing there, and He was casting a shadow (or shadows). These shadows of course that are being cast are the holy days, dietary laws, Sabbath, etcetera (Which I believe do not apply to the life of the New Testament Christian).

There have been many other great moments of clarity by comparing the KJV to Modern Translations.
However, I know Modern Bibles also teach false doctrines and they are based on two corrupt manuscripts (Vaticanus and Sinaiticus) and the work of two heretical men (Westcott and Hort).

There has been one rare instance where my study where I was forced to look at the original languages involving the topic of but I did not try to explain away what the word said in the English in the KJV. The meaning in the original languages simply gave me more depth of meaning. Most today will unfortunately try to explain away what the words in the Bible say in English and I make a great effort never to do that because I believe it is dangerous to alter God's words.
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I don't even glace at the non-word-for-word translations but you got me thinking maybe I should at times.


Bible_Highlighter said:
I believe in the Trinity. I am hoping you believe this basic truth in Scripture because I generally do not like to have discourse with those who deny who God is. I also believe the Bible is my sole authority and the Spirit can guide us into understanding what it says. If somebody is against this I also have a hard time finding a common ground with them because the Bible is my final word of authority for all matters of faith and practice.
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I'm with you here.

Bible_Highlighter said:
Now, I do believe the Bible teaches a view of Soteriology that most in Christianity do not accept. To be upfront and open about what I believe, I believe the Scriptures teach two aspects of salvation.

Aspect of Salvation #1.​
We are first saved by God's grace through faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Titus 3:5).​
This is believing the gospel in that Christ died for our sins, he was buried, and risen on the third day for our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and can involve calling upon Jesus seeking forgiveness of our past life as a sinner (Romans 10:9-13). God's grace is foundational because we have to keep believing the gospel and if we happen to stumble in sin on rare occasions unintentionally, we confess our sins to be forgiven of those sins (with the thinking that we will forsake them for good) (1 John 1:9) (1 John 1:7) (Proverbs 28:13). Believers do not do a "good work" to absolve sin but they boldly go the throne of His grace. Most do not know that Paul was fighting against the heresy of those who thought they had to first be circumcised to be initially saved (See: Acts 15:1, Acts 15:5, Acts 15:24, and Galatians 5:2). This is why Paul spoke in the way he did when he spoke of salvation.​
​
Aspect of Salvation #2.​
God has chosen us for salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit, and a belief in the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13), which is NOT the gospel, but a call of the gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:14) (Also see: Galatians 6:8-9, Romans 8:13, 1 Timothy 5:8).​
​
Some groups try to bypass Aspect Salvation #1 and make salvation all about works like the Church of Christ or the Catholic Church.
They do not believe there is ever a point where we are saved solely by a "belief alone" in the "gospel alone" or by God's grace and mercy alone.

Other groups try to bypass Aspect Salvation #2 and make it all about a belief alone in Jesus and you do not need to worry about sin or being fruitful for God in this life. You can just ignore the cries of the poor as they step over them, and still enter through the pearly gates (Note: This is an exaggerated example but many today believe you can sin and still be saved or they believe the fornicating man in 1 Corinthians 5 that was kicked out of the church).

I realize most Christians do not hold to my view of Soteriology. But a few do. Anyway, in my 101 Reasons for the KJB PDF write, I do not push promote this because I want to create a common ground over being united by one text. In KJV debates, I strive not to bring up my view of Soteriology, as well. So if you disagree, I would say that this topic would be for another thread (Although my time is extremely limited).

I hope this helps, and may the Lord Jesus bless you beyond all measure today.
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I'm not sure I totally understand aspect #2 but aspect #1 is where I would like to have discussions with you.
 
Bible_Highlighter

Bible_Highlighter

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John146 said:
Amen, so no need for a modern translation.;)
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Jeremiah 10:22
“Behold, the noise of the bruit is come, and a great commotion out of the north country, to make the cities of Judah desolate, and a den of dragons.”

What’s a bruit?

Can you quickly tell what that is without looking to a dictionary? The context does not make this word clear.

Job 9:33
“Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both”

What is a daysman?

The context does not make this word clear.

Note: I know what these words mean. I am only asking you if you can figure that out by the context.

Here are a few more challenging ones.

“He runneth upon him, even on his neck, upon the thick bosses of his bucklers: Because he covereth his face with his fatness, and maketh collops of fat on his flanks.” (Job 15:26,27, KJV)

He that is surety for a stranger shall smart for it: and he that hateth suretiship is sure. (Prov 11:15, KJV)

In measure, when it shooteth forth, thou wilt debate with it: he stayeth his rough wind in the day of the east wind. (Isa 27:8, KJV)

For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left. (Deu 32:36, KJV)

Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape. But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. (Deu 32:14,15, KJV)

He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment. He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary. (Job 41:31,32, KJV)

That sendeth ambassadors by the sea, even in vessels of bulrushes upon the waters, saying, Go, ye swift messengers, to a nation scattered and peeled, to a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden down, whose land the rivers have spoiled! (Isa 18:2, KJV)

Some of my fellow KJV-only will sadly say that the KJB is easy enough for a child to understand this. Such is nonsense. Again, I am not faulting God’s Word here. It is still the perfect Word of God but we do need to face reality it is not easy to read always and is not so simple as looking at the context.

Keep in mind that words like repent can have multiple meanings in the Bible. So looking at another part of the Bible with that word may not always help you.
 
Bible_Highlighter

Bible_Highlighter

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turbosixx said:
I don't even glace at the non-word-for-word translations but you got me thinking maybe I should at times.
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The NLT has been helpful at times when I read the difficult parts of the KJB. Granted, I go back and make sure it lines up with the KJB, though.

You said:
I'm with you here.
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I am glad you believe in the Trinity (Godhead). Direct references of the Trinity are removed in Modern Bibles (which is deeply troubling to me).

You said:
I'm not sure I totally understand aspect #2 but aspect #1 is where I would like to have discussions with you.
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Sure. I also believe salvation is conditional and it is not forced upon a person forever because of a one time decision for Christ as one’s Savior. I believe sin can separate a person from God and his salvation unless they confess and forsake such sin.

Pinpoint Evangelism has a great video on explaining a little about aspect #2.


While he is not a KJV believer, I do really believe he understands the Scripture on this topic well.

May the Lord bless you and your family in the name of Jesus.
 
J

John146

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Bible_Highlighter said:
Jeremiah 10:22
“Behold, the noise of the bruit is come, and a great commotion out of the north country, to make the cities of Judah desolate, and a den of dragons.”

What’s a bruit?

Can you quickly tell what that is without looking to a dictionary? The context does not make this word clear.

Job 9:33
“Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both”

What is a daysman?

The context does not make this word clear.

Note: I know what these words mean. I am only asking you if you can figure that out by the context.

Here are a few more challenging ones.

“He runneth upon him, even on his neck, upon the thick bosses of his bucklers: Because he covereth his face with his fatness, and maketh collops of fat on his flanks.” (Job 15:26,27, KJV)

He that is surety for a stranger shall smart for it: and he that hateth suretiship is sure. (Prov 11:15, KJV)

In measure, when it shooteth forth, thou wilt debate with it: he stayeth his rough wind in the day of the east wind. (Isa 27:8, KJV)

For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left. (Deu 32:36, KJV)

Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape. But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. (Deu 32:14,15, KJV)

He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment. He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary. (Job 41:31,32, KJV)

That sendeth ambassadors by the sea, even in vessels of bulrushes upon the waters, saying, Go, ye swift messengers, to a nation scattered and peeled, to a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden down, whose land the rivers have spoiled! (Isa 18:2, KJV)

Some of my fellow KJV-only will sadly say that the KJB is easy enough for a child to understand this. Such is nonsense. Again, I am not faulting God’s Word here. It is still the perfect Word of God but we do need to face reality it is not easy to read always and is not so simple as looking at the context.

Keep in mind that words like repent can have multiple meanings in the Bible. So looking at another part of the Bible with that word may not always help you.
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Did you apply your own advice?

“Of course context is vitally important and cross references, too. Prayer for the Spirit to give you the understanding is also key. Our walk will also affect our understanding, as well.”
 
Bible_Highlighter

Bible_Highlighter

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John146 said:
Did you apply your own advice?

“Of course context is vitally important and cross references, too. Prayer for the Spirit to give you the understanding is also key. Our walk will also affect our understanding, as well.”
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You are not giving me the answer to these words. I can give you an answer quickly because I look to dictionaries and I confirm it by looking to the surrounding context to support the definition of that word (Thereby establishing truth). Many KJV believers employ this method because it is absolutely normal to do so. This is basic education. We do not treat dictionaries as if they are going to lead us astray. If that were the case, you could not function in our society because the agreed-upon words and their meanings could not be trusted. Your distrust of basic information (like dictionaries) is not going to help you to understand the Bible correctly. Words have established meanings when even the KJV translators use them.
 
GRACE_ambassador

GRACE_ambassador

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Bible_Highlighter said:
I also believe salvation is conditional and it is not forced upon a person forever because of a one time decision for Christ as one’s Savior. I believe sin can separate a person from God and his salvation unless they confess and forsake such sin.
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Precious friend, I have been Very encouraged by your many posts uplifting
God's Preserved Word. However, this I will have to Disagree, Since In
The AV, I have found The Following For God's Eternal [ Not 'temporary' ]
Salvation, Freely Given In Today's Dispensation Of The Grace Of God:

Because of Christ's ALL-Sufficient Work On The Cross!

God Has:

God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!
+ Updates: (of # 11) + (of #14)
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

Please be Very Richly Encouraged In The Lord Jesus Christ,
And In His Word Of Truth (AV), Rightly Divided!

Brother ChrisE
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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Bible_Highlighter said:
Sure. I also believe salvation is conditional and it is not forced upon a person forever because of a one time decision for Christ as one’s Savior. I believe sin can separate a person from God and his salvation unless they confess and forsake such sin.
Click to expand...
So in the end you have a DISTORTED view of salvation. Evidently you do not understand what all is included in salvation so that it is in fact IRREVERSIBLE (for those genuinely saved).
 
Bible_Highlighter

Bible_Highlighter

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Nehemiah6 said:
So in the end you have a DISTORTED view of salvation. Evidently you do not understand what all is included in salvation so that it is in fact IRREVERSIBLE (for those genuinely saved).
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Grace, and peace be unto you in the name of Jesus Christ. Normally, I would be happy to discuss this topic in the appropriate thread. But currently my time is limited and the focus of my studies and discussion I want to keep to discussing the King James Bible being the pure Word of God. I have a lot of work to do on my PDF and these discussions sometimes help me. My goal is to finish my 101 Reasons for the KJB. My write-up will not talk about my view of salvation (which I believe is supported by many verses in the Bible).

If you are interested in checking out my biblical support for why I believe the Bible teaches two aspects of salvation, see my write-up here. If not, may the Lord guide you to see the truth in His timing.
 
Bible_Highlighter

Bible_Highlighter

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GRACE_ambassador said:
Precious friend, I have been Very encouraged by your many posts uplifting
God's Preserved Word. However, this I will have to Disagree, Since In
The AV, I have found The Following For God's Eternal [ Not 'temporary' ]
Salvation, Freely Given In Today's Dispensation Of The Grace Of God:

Because of Christ's ALL-Sufficient Work On The Cross!

God Has:

God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!
+ Updates: (of # 11) + (of #14)
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

Please be Very Richly Encouraged In The Lord Jesus Christ,
And In His Word Of Truth (AV), Rightly Divided!

Brother ChrisE
Click to expand...
Thank you for your kind words. I know we have our differing views on salvation. I must follow the path of what I believe Scripture says just as you do. I must stand before Christ and give an account to Him and how I handled and obeyed His Word, just as you do. I cannot force a person to see a truth in Scripture anymore than you. Jesus and His Word will reveal all things. There will be nowhere for men to hide when that day happens. Every believer will be without excuse for any wrong beliefs they might hold to (even if they believe those beliefs with utter conviction). The real test is Scripture. For what saith the Scripture? (Romans 4:3). It is easy to fall into the trap of acceptance and or what a church or pastor says. I have been there myself. If we feed ourselves with information from a church or pastor without being a good Berean, we are in danger. Again, I have been there.

See my next post to you, friend.
 
Bible_Highlighter

Bible_Highlighter

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GRACE_ambassador said:
Precious friend, I have been Very encouraged by your many posts uplifting
God's Preserved Word. However, this I will have to Disagree, Since In
The AV, I have found The Following For God's Eternal [ Not 'temporary' ]
Salvation, Freely Given In Today's Dispensation Of The Grace Of God:

Because of Christ's ALL-Sufficient Work On The Cross!

God Has:

God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!
+ Updates: (of # 11) + (of #14)
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

Please be Very Richly Encouraged In The Lord Jesus Christ,
And In His Word Of Truth (AV), Rightly Divided!

Brother ChrisE
Click to expand...
Please also see my post 2074.

May God’s good ways shine upon you today in the name of Jesus.
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

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Example-
Bible_Highlighter said:
Jeremiah 10:22
“Behold, the noise of the bruit is come, and a great commotion out of the north country, to make the cities of Judah desolate, and a den of dragons.”

What’s a bruit?

Can you quickly tell what that is without looking to a dictionary? The context does not make this word clear.
Click to expand...
Jeremiah 10:22
“Behold, the noise of the bruit is come, and a great commotion out of the north country, to make the cities of Judah desolate, and a den of dragons.”



Okay, I actually used dictionaries and it helps but sometimes KJB has already defined hard words for us and dictionaries were just to confirm the right definition. In the case of the word ‘bruit’, the OED is lacking in the meaning giving us only 4 meanings which may be about the report in general or rumor. The same is true with Collins Dictionary, likewise of 1913 Webster. The passage, however, had something to make the cities of Judah desolate. This is not a rumor since the prophet talks about a definite knowledge that “pastors become brutish”, and they “have not sought the Lord…”. So the context in the KJB sheds light on the meaning of this ‘bruit’, which is a ‘commotion’ out of the North Country.



Looking at older dictionaries, John Baret, Triple Dictionary just confirmed the meaning of the word ‘commotion” or bruit which is a great noise, a trouble, a commotion of people. Is this a rumor, I say no. God bless

John Baret, An Alveary or Triple Dictionary, in English, Latin, and French (1574)

to Sturre: or prouoke: to call out: to raise vp: to waken.Excio, cis, cíui, cire, cîtum. vel Excieo, cies, cíui, ciêre, éxcitum. Excito, tas. Frequentat. ab Excieo. Cic. And Excitatus. Partic. Cic. Moued or stirred vp. Vide Moue and Stirre. * Tumult: businesse: ruffling: sturre: trouble: whorly burly, that riseth of a great feare: sedition: insurrection: commotion of people: great noyse, & broyle. Tumultus, tus, m.g. Cic. And Tumultuosus, a, um. Cic. Ful of businesse, trouble & rufling: troublous: that sturreth to sedition: full of broyle & sturre. And Tumultuóse, tius, sissimè. Aduerb. Liu. Troublously: with businesse, sturre, and rufling: in hast: without study. And Tumultuo, as. Plaut. & Tumúltuor, aris. Dep. Liu. To make tumult, sturre, ruffling &c. To sturre vp mens courages. Exuscitare animos. To sturre great hatred towarde me. Concitare magnum odium in aliquem. Cic. What sturre or businesse is that? Quæ illæc turba est? Ter. To moue or sturre vp to. Excitare ad arma ciuitatem aliquam. Cic. To be in a great sturre or trouble. Effeuescere quodam quasi æstu per translat. Cic. To moue & sturre vp mens courages to warre. Animos in bella versibus exacuere. Hor. To make great sturre or busines: to make much a doo where it nedeth not. Excitare tragædias. Cic.


1706489029044.png
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

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KJB Daysman= judge according to the context of Job 9:15 connecting the Job 19:32 about the judgment. This is confirmed in the Collins Dictionary as a judge. The OED may perhaps reference 1530's John's Palsgrave Lesclarcissement de la Langue Francoyse as an arbiter. However, KJB's own definition as a judge is far better since God may be confused as a sports umpire or arbiter.

God bless
 
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