TEMPLE......TO BE OR NOT TO BE....THAT IS MY QUESTION!!!!!

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cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Yeah, these verses are why I'm so surprised that there are people who think all these prophecies have already come to pass.

They're willfully ignoring or failing to understand them!
Did you finally come over to the "rapture camp"?
I thought that you were opposed to the doctrine of the rapture at some point in time in the recent past?
 

cv5

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Let me ask you then because some things may have crept in without being noticed,,, in Matthew 27:52-53 and Collisions 1:18 do you believe the saints rose first three days before the Lord or that Jesus was the first born of the dead? https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/27.htm https://biblehub.com/interlinear/colossians/1.htm
BTW....this occurred "after His resurrection". So to be clear, I also mean "after".
There is reason to believe that the "crucifixion earthquake" actually opened the graves.
Evidently the resurrection occurred some days later.....:geek:

Mat 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
 

iamsoandso

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Absolutely I do. Have I determined with absolute certainty where this group fits into the rank and order of the first resurrection?

No not really, though I have formed a reasonably astute opinion.

But I do know that this incident takes nothing away from the OTHER ranks and order of the first resurrection.
Furthermore, 2 Thes 2 and all of the other rapture passages are written AFTER this incident.

Did you know that Pamphilus,his friends and pupils including Eusabius made corrections to the Gospel of Matthew prior to Jerome obtaining it and that it's the Gospel of Matthew we have in our bibles today? Is there any other Scripture in the NT about the saints being raised at the death of Jesus(witness of two men is true)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusebius
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

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Did you finally come over to the "rapture camp"?
I thought that you were opposed to the doctrine of the rapture at some point in time in the recent past?

I'm not opposed to the doctrine of the Rapture. I'm Post-Trib and believe the rapture occurs at the same time as Jesus' return. Some people don't see rapture in that, but I don't really care as long as Jesus comes back and collects us.


🏕️
 

vassal

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I'm not opposed to the doctrine of the Rapture. I'm Post-Trib and believe the rapture occurs at the same time as Jesus' return. Some people don't see rapture in that, but I don't really care as long as Jesus comes back and collects us.


🏕️
Same here
 

cv5

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I'm not opposed to the doctrine of the Rapture. I'm Post-Trib and believe the rapture occurs at the same time as Jesus' return. Some people don't see rapture in that, but I don't really care as long as Jesus comes back and collects us.
OK. Don't worry.....you will come around to pre-trib eventually ;)
 
Dec 18, 2023
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I'm not opposed to the doctrine of the Rapture. I'm Post-Trib and believe the rapture occurs at the same time as Jesus' return. Some people don't see rapture in that, but I don't really care as long as Jesus comes back and collects us.


🏕️
same here to,

I'm just going to say post trib makes more sense to me.
 

cv5

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Did you know that Pamphilus,his friends and pupils including Eusabius made corrections to the Gospel of Matthew prior to Jerome obtaining it and that it's the Gospel of Matthew we have in our bibles today? Is there any other Scripture in the NT about the saints being raised at the death of Jesus(witness of two men is true)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusebius
News to me. Doesn't really affect the rapture doctrine one way or the other though.
 
Feb 21, 2016
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John 6:54-56
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Isaiah 14:14
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Satan is a copy cat.To eat the flesh and blood of Jesus is to eat the little book that makes the belly bitter but in the mouth sweet as honey.To live by his Word.To live a spiritual life.

You are what you eat.If you eat his flesh and drink his blood then you are in the image of the Living God.You're created in his image.
But if you are of the world, and of the flesh,what then?
Who's flesh are you eating?who's blood are you drinking?
The beast!.The prince of this world.You are what you eat.those who live in the world are in the image of the beast.

This is why satanist's will do rituals where they will eat the flesh and drink the blood of babies.
 

Kroogz

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I'm not opposed to the doctrine of the Rapture. I'm Post-Trib and believe the rapture occurs at the same time as Jesus' return. Some people don't see rapture in that, but I don't really care as long as Jesus comes back and collects us.


🏕️
We will 'splain it to you on the way up!;)
 

Cameron143

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Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:31 is a promise that God made to the children of Israel, in Deuteronomy 30 ....

that if they strayed away from Him and be sent in the nations, that if they should return to Him spiritually , that He would gathered them physically back from the nations to the land of Israel of their forefathers, no matter how far away they were driven. "from one end of heaven to the other"

"from one end of heaven to the other" in both Matthew 24:31 and Deuteronomy 30:4

Deuteronomy 30:
1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
It's an OT promise. And it was fulfilled many times. But the physical aspects of this promise no longer exist. There is no such agreement that exists. The spiritual aspects still exist; that is, the new covenant allows anyone who calls upon the name of the LORD to enter the kingdom of God. And this is a reference to all Jews who have done so. The way we know this is the term...elect... added in the New Testament quotation. You do not find that in the Deuteronomy passage. But you do find it in Romans 9 and explained over the next 2 chapters. The new covenant is in view. And thankfully so. We've already seen what the old covenant brings.
 

Cameron143

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cv5

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1) It's an OT promise.
2) And it was fulfilled many times.
3) But the physical aspects of this promise no longer exist.
4) There is no such agreement that exists.
1) No
2) No
3) No
4) No

Four swings and four misses. But you are consistent I will give you that.
 

cv5

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All that describes the destruction of Israel. Verses 12-14 describe decreation language that always accompanies judgment, as already explained. Verse 15 is a description of Israel in the 1st in Jerusalem. Verse 17 describes the day of vengeance and wrath spoken of by John the Baptist. Nothing new here.
Rubbish. Verse 15 are clearly gentiles screaming bloody murder in fear of their lives.
Furthermore Israel cannot possibly be portrayed as more distinct from gentiles in the book of Revelation.

By the way the Church is vacant from Chapter 6 through 19.
 

douggg

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It's an OT promise. And it was fulfilled many times. But the physical aspects of this promise no longer exist. There is no such agreement that exists. The spiritual aspects still exist; that is, the new covenant allows anyone who calls upon the name of the LORD to enter the kingdom of God. And this is a reference to all Jews who have done so. The way we know this is the term...elect... added in the New Testament quotation. You do not find that in the Deuteronomy passage. But you do find it in Romans 9 and explained over the next 2 chapters. The new covenant is in view. And thankfully so. We've already seen what the old covenant brings.
The gathering of the house of Israel back to the land of Israel is also in Ezekiel 39:28. Jesus Himself is speaking in the text of Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to his earth. The Armageddon event is in Ezekiel 39:17-20, corresponding to Revelation 19:17-18.

Armageddon:
Ezekiel 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

Armageddon:
Revelation 19: 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
 

Pilgrimshope

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I don't have a good explanation of Matthew 23:39 at present. I know the assumption is that He is speaking to the Pharisees, but His disciples are also there. So I would need to research this further.
As far as Matthew 24, the language employed in verse 31 is decreation language, as opposed to creation language. When new things come about, the language of creation is employed. For example, those who are in Christ are spoken of as new creations. In like manner, when judgment is referred to, language such as you see here is employed. Darkness replaces light, stars fall rather than go through their natural courses, and the established order of creation are spoken of as disrupted. You find this in Peter's writings, Isaiah, etc.
Verse 30 that you underlined says they will see the sign of the Son of man in heaven. What is that sign? It doesn't say they will see the Son of man. That sign is the destruction of Israel. This is the evidence that Jesus is who He said He was and is in heaven exercising the authority and power that was granted Him. Thus, seeing Him coming isn't referring to His physical presence but the effects of the sign which is what is causing their mourning. And what they all see is the administration of His power and glory which is restored to Him back in heaven.
His elect in the following verse is not Israel but all who have believed as a result of gospel as it has spread throughout the known world.
“]I don't have a good explanation of Matthew 23:39 at present. “

If you read more of the context of what he’s saying leading to it it’s supporting that that generation ups suffer all the things he was telling them

Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.




For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:31-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you see how trying to interpret verse 39 doesn’t erase what he’s said very clearly

“Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. “

now if I challenge you to explain this it doesn’t change anything he’s already made really clear there

“For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.”

I can’t now interpret that what he said about all those things happening in that generation is wrong because I say this verse proves it wrong lol
 

Pilgrimshope

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All that describes the destruction of Israel. Verses 12-14 describe decreation language that always accompanies judgment, as already explained. Verse 15 is a description of Israel in the 1st in Jerusalem. Verse 17 describes the day of vengeance and wrath spoken of by John the Baptist. Nothing new here.
“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:4, 9-10, 13-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel:


I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; that thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places. They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭49:6-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:35‬ ‭

“Write the things which thou hast seen,

and the things which are, ( present )

and the things which shall be hereafter;”( future )
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And there are seven kings:

five are fallen,( johns past )

and one is, ( johns present )

and the other is not yet come; ( future )and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.


“And the beast that was, ( past )

and is not,( preeent )

even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.”( future )
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17
 

Cameron143

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The gathering of the house of Israel back to the land of Israel is also in Ezekiel 39:28. Jesus Himself is speaking in the text of Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to his earth. The Armageddon event is in Ezekiel 39:17-20, corresponding to Revelation 19:17-18.

Armageddon:
Ezekiel 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

Armageddon:
Revelation 19: 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Ezekiel 39:19...what is the sacrifice that God prepared for them?
Is it the same sacrifice in Genesis 3:15 where the seed of the woman is promised and pictured in the shedding of blood for a covering?
Is it the same sacrifice pictured in the of sacrifice of Abel of the firstling of his flock?
Is it the same one that Abraham spoke of in Genesis 22:8...God will provide Himself a Lamb?
Is it the same sacrifice pictured in all the OT blood sacrifices?
Is it the same sacrifice spoken of in John 3:16 where God gave the perfect spotless Lamb?
Isn't this sacrifice for the whole world?

Feathered fowl and beast of the field? Unclean. Perhaps symbolic of Gentiles who are invited to the feast.

The rest of the verses having the weak and the outcasts overcoming the great....perhaps the meek inheriting the earth.

The last 2 verses already explained or explained a similar verse.