Does God love all mankind and does He wish to save everyone

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ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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#701
PaulThomson said:
Irrelevant. I was not responding to a claim that only faith in Jesus Christ can join us to God. The claim was that the unregenerate can have no faith in God, but the unregenerate can only have faith in themselves and other humans.

I was responding to this -

ForestGreenCook said:
The only faith that the unregenerate person has is their faith in mankind and what they can accomplish without God.

People can have faith in God to supply answers to man's corruption of himself, his society and his world without yet believing in Jesus Christ as Messiah, Saviour and Lord. It is untrue that the unregenerate can only have and put all their faith in man.
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You are giving the unregenerate person the ability to discern spiritual things, which contradicts 1 Cor 2:14. All of the scriptures must harmonize if you are to understand the truth of Christ's doctrine.

There are in this present time, I believe, Jews who are born again believers in God and are still awaiting their true Savior.
 
Mem

Mem

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#702
Jesus said, "...how often have I longed to... and were not willing..."
 
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ForestGreenCook

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Evmur said:
Here is where you are wrong [and most evangelicals of all ages Catholic/Protestant] you say "they go to their graves unbelievers, they are sealed for destruction"

Now the bible does not say so.

There is only 1 final judgement you'll agree. John calls it the great white throne judgement, in Matt 25 it is the sheep and goats.

In BOTH these scriptures people are judged according to what they have done. The sheep did well the goats not so much.

The church is not here except that God will bring us with Him when He comes to judge. John says we were in the first resurrection [blessed are they] John says we are passed over from judgement to life. We will have been raptured 1, 000 years before this second resurrection, we will have reigned with Christ. THEREFORE

Therefore whoever they are these sheep who find mercy on that day, they are not the church, they are a different bunch from those who Jesus calls "these My brethren." NO WAY are these the church, so who are they?

They are the meek who will inherit the earth, the new earth. We belong in heaven, these who were judged by the deeds inherit the earth.

WHO says so? ... ME, I say so. I will NEVER believe that billions of human souls will be in hell. The wicked will be in hell and I'm not afraid to preach it. The reason folks find this doctrine so difficult to preach [except from a pulpit] is because they feel instinctively that it is wrong, the Holy Spirit is convicting them that it is wrong even as they speak.
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All of God's elect (Eph 1:4) comprise the church. God gave them to Jesus to redeem them from their sins on the cross, which he was successful in doing. (John 6:37-40)

There are many doctrines in this world, as evidenced in this forum, in whom, I believe, are included in God's elect, but there is only one true doctrine, and that is the doctrine of Christ.

There will always be that true witness of Christ's doctrine preached unto all nations until he comes again (Matt 24:14).

Those elect who are teaching false doctrines (disobedient children of God, Jacob/Israel = spiritual Israel) and those that are teaching the doctrine of Christ (the remnant of Jacob/Israel) both have the promise of eternal inheritance. I believe this to harmonize with the two gates in Matt 7, and the inner wheel and outer wheel in Ezk 10:10.
 
BillyBob

BillyBob

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Magenta said:
Forest... I can say with all honesty, that you believe that people are saved apart from faith, because
that is what you have imparted to me again and again, and you just did now, again, too.
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Magenta,
I interrupt this conversation to ask: Is your ID picture a picture of you as a child? If so, you should go into the baby food business placing your picture on the front of each bottle! I think that you could put Gerber out-of-business!
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#705
Jul 3, 2015
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#705
BillyBob said:
Magenta,
I interrupt this conversation to ask: Is your ID picture a picture of you as a child? If so, you should go into the baby food business placing your picture on the front of each bottle! I think that you could put Gerber out-of-business!
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Hello Billy Bob, yes that is me as a child just before entering the school system... :D
 
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PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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#708
BillyBob said:
Are you implying that God desires to save some that will not come to him? That man has the power to resist his desires?
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I'm not implying it. I am stating it plainly. The Bible states it plainly..

God is love. 1 John 4:16
Love does not insist on getting its own way. 1 Cor. 13:5
1The Pharisees rejected God's plan (boulEn) for themselves. Luke7:30

God is not like satan. Coercive power and lying via anthropomorphic language are not actually features of God's rulership, but they are features of Satan's.

To the pure God is pure. To the upright God is upright. To the crooked God is crooked. To the power-obsessed God is power obsessed. To the Obsessive compulsive, God is obsessive compulsive. etc. Our view of God's priorities reflects our own priorities. 2 Sam. 22:26-27
 
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PaulThomson

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ForestGreenCook said:
You are giving the unregenerate person the ability to discern spiritual things, which contradicts 1 Cor 2:14. All of the scriptures must harmonize if you are to understand the truth of Christ's doctrine.

There are in this present time, I believe, Jews who are born again believers in God and are still awaiting their true Savior.
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Jesus told Nicodemas that the idea of the need for rebirth and its being effected by the cross is an earthly teaching (comprehensible to the natural man), not a spiritual one . John 3
 
Evmur

Evmur

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ForestGreenCook said:
All of God's elect (Eph 1:4) comprise the church. God gave them to Jesus to redeem them from their sins on the cross, which he was successful in doing. (John 6:37-40)

There are many doctrines in this world, as evidenced in this forum, in whom, I believe, are included in God's elect, but there is only one true doctrine, and that is the doctrine of Christ.

There will always be that true witness of Christ's doctrine preached unto all nations until he comes again (Matt 24:14).

Those elect who are teaching false doctrines (disobedient children of God, Jacob/Israel = spiritual Israel) and those that are teaching the doctrine of Christ (the remnant of Jacob/Israel) both have the promise of eternal inheritance. I believe this to harmonize with the two gates in Matt 7, and the inner wheel and outer wheel in Ezk 10:10.
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yes back to the bible

What very few folks seem to realize is the extent to which the gospel by the time it reached Europe was already horribly corrupted by what became the Catholic church. The church was firmly wedded to the Roman empire and human government. People by law had to be Catholic or perish physically as well as spiritually. From this came the mindset that people were either Catholic or heathen and therefore damned. The church became the only salvation. This is corrupt and wrong. This was also the mindset carried over to the reformation, and Luther and co also relied on the state as much as the Catholics.

Jesus saves.

One great crime of the church fathers as they are known was that they decided to drop the doctrine concerning the 1, 000 year reign of Christ on earth.

So the church was now not only the salvation of the world but also the kingdom of God on earth. Really the church's job was to announce the kingdom, to announce salvation, to proclaim Jesus as the King and Saviour. But the church took upon itself both the role of Lord and Saviour.

And this was the gospel that came to Europe.

St Jerome translated the scriptures into latin with this mindset and he made some glaring errors one of which was in identifying the sheep in Matt. 25 as the church ... they are not the church, they cannot possibly be the church.

This error in translation passed through the reformation down to the present.
 
BillyBob

BillyBob

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PaulThomson said:
I'm not implying it. I am stating it plainly. The Bible states it plainly..

God is love. 1 John 4:16
Love does not insist on getting its own way. 1 Cor. 13:5
1The Pharisees rejected God's plan (boulEn) for themselves. Luke7:30

God is not like satan. Coercive power and lying via anthropomorphic language are not actually features of God's rulership, but they are features of Satan's.

To the pure God is pure. To the upright God is upright. To the crooked God is crooked. To the power-obsessed God is power obsessed. To the Obsessive compulsive, God is obsessive compulsive. etc. Our view of God's priorities reflects our own priorities. 2 Sam. 22:26-27
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Since you believe that men can reject God's plan, then I see no reason for you to consider God in any way whatsoever! You have a free path to heaven based on your desires, not His. If God were to (not desire you), you could just tell him “sorry God it does not matter what you desire, I can earn my way to heaven without you”.

You need to stop and consider how great and powerful God is.
  • God created the heaven's and the earth
  • He created every single creature that roams the earth, “including man”
  • God made the sun stand still.
  • God parted the waters to show his power and protect his people
  • …..... ............ ........
And scripture tells us EVEN BEFORE CREATION we were chosen:

God chose us in Christ, before the foundation of the world, so that we should be holy and blameless before him with love; he predestined us whom he adopted as his children through Jesus Christ, in himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, by which he freely made us pleasing to himself in his beloved (Eph. 1:4-6).

Do you therefore believe that the creature can override the plans of the creator?

Just as God himself is most wise, unchangeable, all-knowing, and almighty, so the election made by him can neither be suspended nor altered, revoked, or annulled; neither can his chosen ones be cast off, nor their number reduced.

His plan was put in place before time began as we know time, and his plan will not fail!
 
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PaulThomson

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BillyBob said:
Since you believe that men can reject God's plan, then I see no reason for you to consider God in any way whatsoever! You have a free path to heaven based on your desires, not His. If God were to (not desire you), you could just tell him “sorry God it does not matter what you desire, I can earn my way to heaven without you”.
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You may apply your theology to my faith and "see no reason for [me] to consider God in any way whatsoever", and yet I do consider God and trust Him. So, there is something wrong with your theological framework. that is making reality inconscionable to you.

The Bible says, "The Pharisees rejected God's plan (boulEn) for themselves." Luke7:30 So why can you NOT believe the Bible. when it says that men do reject God's plan for them?

My path tp God is based on His expressed desire. It is His will that none should perish, but all should come to repentance. 2 Pet. 3:9
In the basis of God's revelation here, I can have confidence that I can come to Him through faith in Jesus because I am an "any" who is part of the "all".

No. I could not just tell him “sorry God it does not matter what you desire, I can earn my way to heaven without you”. Why would I? He desires me to come and be saved. He says I must come through faith in Christ. I have to come His appointed way. He is God.
 
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PaulThomson

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BillyBob said:
You need to stop and consider how great and powerful God is.
  • God created the heaven's and the earth
  • He created every single creature that roams the earth, “including man”
  • God made the sun stand still.
  • God parted the waters to show his power and protect his people
  • …..... ............ ........
And scripture tells us EVEN BEFORE CREATION we were chosen:
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I believe how great God is.

BillyBob said:
And scripture tells us EVEN BEFORE CREATION we were chosen:

God chose us in Christ, before the foundation of the world, so that we should be holy and blameless before him with love; he predestined us whom he adopted as his children through Jesus Christ, in himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, by which he freely made us pleasing to himself in his beloved (Eph. 1:4-6).
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My grandfather set up a family trust before He I was born that would dispense his estate to his children, not yet born at the time He set the trust up, and also to all the descendants of his only son. His great grand children were included in that before he ever knew any of them or whether there would be any.
My grandfather chose those in his only son before the beginning of his posterity, to be equipped to be upstanding and contributing members of society. He predestined us whom He owned as his posterity through his only son, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of his glorious grace, by which he designated us (before any of his children were born) pleasing to himself in his beloved son (whom he anticipated would come long one day).

You should be able to see from this that the language of Eph. 1:4-6 does not necessitate that the Father knew by name all the children to come through the Son, in oreder to choose them in the Son before they were ever born.
 
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ForestGreenCook

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CS1 said:
The context of John 17 is Jesus praying for the Disciples and the work they will be doing. In John 3:16, Jesus said For God so loved the world that he gave his only son. The Greek word translates to Cosmo. In John 17, Jesus is not talking about Dying for the world; He is talking about praying for those called to do the purpose of HIS Gospel.

If you read on in Chapter 17, Jesus said this in verse 20.


20“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;

That is ALL WHO WILL be saved. Jesus said these things before the Cross. The Love of the world was not reduced because Jesus prayed for only Specific people.

This is seen in his last words to the Apostles in Acts chapter 1. Also in Matthew 28:18-20
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You gave a good attempt to avoid that there is a different world other than the world in John 3:16 that God loves who are in the world, but not of the world, , Those that are of the world are the goats, those that do not recognize that there is a spiritual God, the wicked that are of the world, and more that Jesus will not pray for.

Jesus's disciples said it is a hard saying, who can understand it? Jesus said, no man/woman can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Matt 11:27-30 - All things are delivered unto me of my Father, and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, AND HE TO WHOMSOEVER THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM.

Come unto me (those who were given unto Jesus of his Father John 6:37) all ye (not the whole world) that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart and ye shall find rest unto your souls
 
Magenta

Magenta

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ForestGreenCook said:
Matt 11:27-30 - All things are delivered unto me of my Father, and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father,
neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, AND HE TO WHOMSOEVER THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM.

Come unto me (those who were given unto Jesus of his Father John 6:37) all ye
(not the whole world) that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart and ye shall find rest unto your souls
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Matthew 11:28-30
:)
 
Magenta

Magenta

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ForestGreenCook said:
A scripture would help me to follow your thought.
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Maybe he means like those at Mars Hill? From Acts 17

Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that
in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions,
I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye
ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things
therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made
with hands; neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing,
seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; and hath made of one blood all
nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times
before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; that they should seek the Lord,
if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one
of us: for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own
poets have said, For we are also his offspring.


From Acts 17:26-28
:)
 
CS1

CS1

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ForestGreenCook said:
You gave a good attempt to avoid that there is a different world other than the world in John 3:16 that God loves who are in the world, but not of the world, , Those that are of the world are the goats, those that do not recognize that there is a spiritual God, the wicked that are of the world, and more that Jesus will not pray for.

Jesus's disciples said it is a hard saying, who can understand it? Jesus said, no man/woman can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Matt 11:27-30 - All things are delivered unto me of my Father, and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, AND HE TO WHOMSOEVER THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM.

Come unto me (those who were given unto Jesus of his Father John 6:37) all ye (not the whole world) that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart and ye shall find rest unto your souls
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Ok, if you think so,

FYI those who are goats will find that out when we are separated. Also, those who say Lord lord, Jesu, we say to some I never knew you. FYI the term knew you is, too, a different meaning, Yet World, Cosmo, or those earthly occupance speak of People.
 
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reneweddaybyday

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Mar 23, 2016
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#719
ForestGreenCook said:
So, do you think that Psalms 73 should not be a part of the bible?
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:rolleyes: ... please provide the post submitted by me wherein I stated "Psalms 73 should not be part of the Bible".




ForestGreenCook said:
What do you do with the scripture that says God chastens every son whom he receives.
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believe it.




ForestGreenCook said:
Does he receive those that do not believe in him?
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:rolleyes: ... read Romans 1:18-32 ...

Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26, Romans 1:28 state that God gave them up ... the "them" are those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. They reject God and God gives them up.
.
 
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reneweddaybyday

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ForestGreenCook said:
The natural man does not go to the bible to understand "thou shalt not steal".
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:rolleyes: ... seriously, ForestGreenCook? Do you believe every person sitting in church pews is born again? Unbelievers go to church because they believe the church will teach them the Word of God.

The problem is that there are many preachers who do not preach God's Word so folks sit in the pews thinking they are being taught truth but in reality they are being taught man's wisdom ... and man's wisdom cannot save them.

And, sad to say, in churches where the truth of God's Word is taught, we have folks who suppress the truth in unrighteousness ... and when it comes to the gospel, those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness are not born again. Romans 1:16 tells us the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.

Going to church does not make someone a believer any more than going to an auto repair shop makes someone a mechanic.




ForestGreenCook said:
The natural man understands the law of man. He does not understand the law of a spiritual God.
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Not true. People who are not born again can understand the words "do not steal".

They understand the words just fine ... they just reject the truth. They reject God ... behave however they want ... and reap the consequence of their unbelief.




ForestGreenCook said:
Your theology gives credit to man, not to God.
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:rolleyes: ... nope ... believing God gives all credit to God. Believing God lays aside self reliance or reliance on man's wisdom.

Romans 4:

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
.
 
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