TEMPLE......TO BE OR NOT TO BE....THAT IS MY QUESTION!!!!!

Well Jesus said that ALL authority in Heaven and ON EARTH has been granted to Him, and for us to go and make disciples of ALL nations because of this, right before ascending to sit on His throne at the right hand of the Father. As far as I know He MUST reign until every enemy is put under His feet. How does He tell us the kingdom comes? In a fiery war as He's slaying foes left and right with His mouth sword from His white hoarse, bringing a kingdom we can point to and say "there it is"? Or is it more like a seed growing into a tree? I think it's kind of cheap when people jump to these verses and use them as a "I win automatically" card.

Does Gods law bend? Or is it ALWAYS like an iron rod that leaves men only 1 way to reconciliation? You say these thing in a mocking way yet nothing you believe about a "pre-trib rapture" isn't brought to the text. This is hard to understand when you've been told your whole life by the faithful men and women you trust that "this verse means this, and that verse means that", when that's what they were taught in Bible collage and there's not reason for you to doubt them, but if you take a step back with the text and read these verses in there context you'll see there is no way to pull from the text what this view teaches about them without HAVING to add a whole bunch that is not there.

I understand what you believe and why you believe it, I really do, I was taught the same things, but these very weak arguments are just trying to avoid diving deeper into the issues. Like this one I've heard 1,000 times, "Oh what, the stars are still there and the moon still gives light so...everything you say is invalid."

That's not honestly dealing with anything and avoiding actual thought and conversation. When you read the text EVERYTHING is pointing to a coming judgement coming SOON, happening to THEM.

AHHH, I could go on and on about this, but I'm sure you care very little about my opinion, but we all owe it to ourselves to try to seek truth and share it where we can, that includes listening to the others arguments honestly, because it's not always them that's in the wrong. I've found myself on the wrong side way more than I'd like to admit. So I hope you have a good day and pray we are both drawn closer to truth daily.

Whilst you've done a study to suit other verses in Daniel 12

Have you done a study of this verse in Dan 12

And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Like Paul states we can all be part of the plant..
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God:.....
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

So we can all be part of the tribe of Israel because of Jesus..

Are you defining "the olive tree" as "the tribe of Israel"? It sounds as though this is what you mean.

I don't see "the olive tree" here to be defined as "the tribe of Israel," as though this is what Gentiles are "graffed in among them" to be... [it says, among "the natural branches"]... and so (according to your view, or at least how I'm reading you) becoming part of "the tribe of Israel"... ("them" being "the natural BRANCHES" rather than "the olive tree" itself, see).

Thoughts?

What we CAN define with certainty is Who the Root of the olive tree refers to.....
And I agree, Biblically, gentile believers are NEVER described as the stock of the sons of Jacob.
In other words, Israelites can be Christians, but Christians can NEVER be Israelites.

Isa 11:10
And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Rev 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Rev 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Rom 11:16
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Rom 11:17
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:18
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Rom 15:12
And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

I apologize for missing this post of yours (Post #782, page 40), which you had addressed to me.

Yes, I've done a study of it.

In my Post #260 of this thread, I had written a small blurb about this section of Dan12 (vv.1-4), by saying:

"John 6:39,40 is speaking of two distinct matters which will be raised up "IN the LAST DAY" (not a "singular 24-hr day" kind of "day"--but the LAST MILLENIUM--the SEVENTH and LAST--what Hosea calls "IN the THIRD DAY" because factored from the time of His ascension, in that passage, referring to ISRAEL's "future"... same subject as Ezek37:12-14,20-23,26,28... and Dan12:1-3,4... and Isa26:13-21... and in Romans 11:15[,25]... etc... ALL of these passages LIKENING it to a "resurrection," but speaking of Israel coming up out of the "graveyard of nations, WHERE SCATTERED")] : "

[end quoting from that post]


Now, Daniel 12:13 IS referring to a bodily/physical resurrection from the dead; but Daniel 12:2 is NOT referring to a bodily resurrection of formerly deceased persons (as many suppose), but rather corresponds with the passages I listed above (and perhaps others), where scripture is LIKENING Israel's coming up out of the graveyard of nations (where scattered), LIKENING that to a "resurrection" (see the passages I listed above, in their contexts).



So... in view of this ^ ... verse 4 (the verse you quoted, above) refers to what THEY (the "wise" of Israel, at that future time-period) will GO ON to DO ("turn many to righteousness"); Verse 10 says "the WISE will understand"... but "the wicked SHALL NOT understand" (in that future time-period being covered in this context).

I believe the "WISE" here corresponds to the "wise servants" and the "wise virgins" of the eschatological passages in the gospels, for example, in Matthew 24:42-51,45 parallel passage with Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 (and where in this Lk12 passage it states in v.36 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom" at that point) THEN "the meal [G347--i.e. the earthly MK age... this Grk word also used in Matt8:11 and its parallel]";

...and the Matt25:1-13 passage where it says, "and they that were ready [i.e. the "wise" virgins (not "the bride [singular]," mind you, who is not being spoken of in this passage)] went in with [G3326-accompanying] him to the wedding-feast/supper/festivities [i.e. the earthly MK age]"... and other related passages.
No one is "lifting off the earth" in these passages, and these folks are "still-living" saints at the time of His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 (these passages are not speaking of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," here, but of His "RETURN" to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age).



But like I said, Daniel 12:13 IS speaking of bodily resurrection ('to stand again'--on the earth); and v.12's "BLESSED" corresponds with about 7-8[?] other "BLESSED" passages speaking to this same time-slot and circumstances, when "still-living" (mortal) saints will ENTER the earthly MK age (commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19).



Hope that helps you see my perspective. Thank you for asking. =) Please let me know if anything I've put here needs further clarification.



I do believe it is a mistake to view Daniel 12:1-4 as a "physical resurrection from the dead" (whereas v.13 DOES refer to such).
Verse 4 is speaking of what they ('still-living' persons) go on TO DO (in that future time-period).

Wonderful! I know I am truly blessed to read your posts on this subject. Everybody here should listen up!

Agree. @TheDivineWatermark is the best scholar on CC!

I have bookmarked many dozens of his fine posts. I suggest that you do the same.

There is no verse in either OT or NT that says the Temple (physical building) will be rebuilt a third time

Do not see much in the way of Scriptural backing there Jimbone buddy.

On that basis, I must reject your commentary and its conclusions.

As I reject yours, and your conclusion about mine. I see ALL of scripture back up the fact that there is a coming judgement on Jerusalem very specifically. From the time after the gap in-between the prophets and the fulfillment of prophesy, just as God said it would happen, John the Baptist says in Mat. 3.

3 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” 3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah when he said,

“The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
make his paths straight.’”

4 Now John wore a garment of camel's hair and a leather belt around his waist, and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan were going out to him, 6 and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. 10 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

The first thing he does is tell THEM about the coming judgement. Them. Do a little research on this in the original language

"10 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

The "ax is laid to the root" means the ax is in swing, that means it's almost biting into the wood already, not thousands of years away. Also he is asking THEM who warned THEM to flee. None of this at all makes sense under your view. Never mind our God telling those who asked Him, "when will ALL these things take place", and Jesus Himself says before THIS generation passes in Matthew 24. Please don't come here on a high horse with your nose in the air acting like you're the master of scripture. I'm telling you that you can NOT use exegesis to reach this pre-trib, future to us pop view at all. Only through eisegesis can it exist. This is not a matter of my opinion, this is a fact that only the willingly blind with dismiss. No one could take God word as it is, read it for the first time, and come to the futurist, pre-mill outlook. It's just not there without coming to the text with it. This is just true and why you need charts+ guru+ timelines in addition to the bible for it to even show up. Every word of scripture supports it happening as He said it would.

I apologize for missing this post of yours (Post #782, page 40), which you had addressed to me.

Yes, I've done a study of it.

In my Post #260 of this thread, I had written a small blurb about this section of Dan12 (vv.1-4), by saying:

"John 6:39,40 is speaking of two distinct matters which will be raised up "IN the LAST DAY" (not a "singular 24-hr day" kind of "day"--but the LAST MILLENIUM--the SEVENTH and LAST--what Hosea calls "IN the THIRD DAY" because factored from the time of His ascension, in that passage, referring to ISRAEL's "future"... same subject as Ezek37:12-14,20-23,26,28... and Dan12:1-3,4... and Isa26:13-21... and in Romans 11:15[,25]... etc... ALL of these passages LIKENING it to a "resurrection," but speaking of Israel coming up out of the "graveyard of nations, WHERE SCATTERED")] : "

[end quoting from that post]


Now, Daniel 12:13 IS referring to a bodily/physical resurrection from the dead; but Daniel 12:2 is NOT referring to a bodily resurrection of formerly deceased persons (as many suppose), but rather corresponds with the passages I listed above (and perhaps others), where scripture is LIKENING Israel's coming up out of the graveyard of nations (where scattered), LIKENING that to a "resurrection" (see the passages I listed above, in their contexts).



So... in view of this ^ ... verse 4 (the verse you quoted, above) refers to what THEY (the "wise" of Israel, at that future time-period) will GO ON to DO ("turn many to righteousness"); Verse 10 says "the WISE will understand"... but "the wicked SHALL NOT understand" (in that future time-period being covered in this context).

I believe the "WISE" here corresponds to the "wise servants" and the "wise virgins" of the eschatological passages in the gospels, for example, in Matthew 24:42-51,45 parallel passage with Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 (and where in this Lk12 passage it states in v.36 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom" at that point) THEN "the meal [G347--i.e. the earthly MK age... this Grk word also used in Matt8:11 and its parallel]";

...and the Matt25:1-13 passage where it says, "and they that were ready [i.e. the "wise" virgins (not "the bride [singular]," mind you, who is not being spoken of in this passage)] went in with [G3326-accompanying] him to the wedding-feast/supper/festivities [i.e. the earthly MK age]"... and other related passages.
No one is "lifting off the earth" in these passages, and these folks are "still-living" saints at the time of His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 (these passages are not speaking of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," here, but of His "RETURN" to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age).



But like I said, Daniel 12:13 IS speaking of bodily resurrection ('to stand again'--on the earth); and v.12's "BLESSED" corresponds with about 7-8[?] other "BLESSED" passages speaking to this same time-slot and circumstances, when "still-living" (mortal) saints will ENTER the earthly MK age (commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19).



Hope that helps you see my perspective. Thank you for asking. =) Please let me know if anything I've put here needs further clarification.



I do believe it is a mistake to view Daniel 12:1-4 as a "physical resurrection from the dead" (whereas v.13 DOES refer to such).
Verse 4 is speaking of what they ('still-living' persons) go on TO DO (in that future time-period).

Watching too much can Prophecy Club can addle the mind.....

Eze 41:1
Afterward he brought me to the temple, and measured the posts, six cubits broad on the one side, and six cubits broad on the other side, which was the breadth of the tabernacle.
Eze 41:4
So he measured the length thereof, twenty cubits; and the breadth, twenty cubits, before the temple: and he said unto me, This is the most holy place.
Eze 41:15
And he measured the length of the building over against the separate place which was behind it, and the galleries thereof on the one side and on the other side, an hundred cubits, with the inner temple, and the porches of the court;
Eze 41:20
From the ground unto above the door were cherubims and palm trees made, and on the wall of the temple.
Eze 41:21
The posts of the temple were squared, and the face of the sanctuary; the appearance of the one as the appearance of the other.
Eze 41:23
And the temple and the sanctuary had two doors.
Eze 41:25
And there were made on them, on the doors of the temple, cherubims and palm trees, like as were made upon the walls; and there were thick planks upon the face of the porch without.
Eze 42:8
For the length of the chambers that were in the utter court was fifty cubits: and, lo, before the temple were an hundred cubits.

That is a reference to the Spiritual temple, the new Jerusalem.

Agree. @TheDivineWatermark is the best scholar on CC!

I have bookmarked many dozens of his fine posts. I suggest that you do the same.

As I reject yours, and your conclusion about mine. I see ALL of scripture back up the fact that there is a coming judgement on Jerusalem very specifically. From the time after the gap in-between the prophets and the fulfillment of prophesy, just as God said it would happen, John the Baptist says in Mat. 3.

3 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” 3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah when he said,

“The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
make his paths straight.’”

Israel COULD have received the Kingdom right then and there. But they rejected their King of course.


Luk 13:35
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

lol there are no best scholars in this subject. Only those who think they are just sayin.

Simple observation of the posts on this thread are proof positive to the contrary.

Furthermore, rank and stature of the authors are an honor bestowed, not seized.