Is it the ‘end of the world?’ or ‘the end of the age?’

Other people have already basically said this, but if you really want to understand what a verse means, don't bother with an English translation, because the translators have usually inserted their own guesswork and doctrinal positions into the text, as well as chosen a specific word to translate concisely, which usually sacrifices the full potential meaning. Start with an interlinear text and see the meaning or range of meanings in the original language, and start from there:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/24-3.htm

This is an excellent tool because you can click the number for each word and see the Strong's definition and how it is translated in other verses (as well as other verses that used the same word).

For example, συντέλεια:

Definition: a joint payment (for public service), joint action, completion
Usage: a completion, consummation, end.

https://biblehub.com/greek/4930.htm

“Our 6000 or so years of trying to live apart from our Creator on the whole has been a complete tragedy. War, poverty, disease, and greed has been a large part of our fallen world, and our damage is becoming exponentially more dangerous as we have increased in population with technological and military powers that could desolate and perhaps even destroy this planet if all out war happens between the "super powers."


Look what happened and we can even begin you understand why

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:26-28, 31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: But the earth hath he given to the children of men.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭115:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-7, 11-13‬ ‭


From Man being given dominion it took o my ten generations to go from a very good creation to mankind’s corruption leading to corruption of all the earth filling the world with violence and ruling it with wickedness creating formoir own selves evil e wry evil under the sun from our imaginations and lusts we took paradise and made it a haven for wickedness and evil and violence and war

Remember there’s a reason Jesus became a man a “ son of man “ born on earth like mankind is …. it’s meant to fulfill man’s dominion but in Gods perfect image where we all failed and corrupted everything Jesus life of man’s perfection has founded everything g he promised us in the new creation as if he’s the new first man he’s the son of god were the children of God

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22, 24, 26-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So when Jesus became a man he took dominion back from Satan who had taken it from mankind in the beginning

So this in the ot

The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: But the earth hath he given to the children of men.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭115:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Is still true but now Jesus became a man too so then

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power ( dominion ) is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God created all things and gave earth to man , we were corrupted and then corrupted the earth Our creator then became a man fully lived as one of us who had dominion upon earth but we had all failed and lost it to Satan when we sinned it’s the seed of promise destroying the work of Satan on the beginning when he corrupted mankind

“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The devils work is seen on genesis chapter 6 description of what his corrupting then with the knowledge of good and evil had led to mankind’s slavery to sin and lost hope of life Jesus has come to give us north o to a new Hope wot a promise for a new home I corrupted and I touched by sin where Adam doesn’t get deceived but instead Jesus crushed the head of the serpent and man is never corrupted again but is as we were created to be good and decent to the core a reflection of God our eternal father through Jesus Christ our Lord

What a promise we truly are beholding that of a perfect world where God walks among us and we see him face to face no death no sorrows no more of this world

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But a promise for this which we can only receive by faith it can’t be proven beforehand it has to be believed upon and hoped for because we know he promised us believers

“Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭

I’m amazed at how clearly and thoroughly he always speaks of we hear what he has said in his word sent to the world to believe

I really like these observation, and I hope you don't mind the edits I made to your thoughts above (sorry, I couldn't hold back my English teacher revisions...)

As you noted, it only took a short time after the fall to go from a peaceful and happy life with God in the garden to a world filled with wickedness and violence where God was sorry that He had made mankind:

Genesis 6:6

King James Version

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Satan lied to mankind and once we took the bait, he turned our lives and our world upside down. There are only empty promises and exploitations under his leadership. It is only through grace and patience that God has put up with our foolish decisions.

Yet, like you said, we have a Redeemer who has made a New Covenant with us and given us an opportunity for a new heart and a new Spirit that is open to His leadership and way of life. It is only through God transforming our lives from the inside out that we can be reunited with God and live in harmony with Him, this planet, and our fellow mankind.

Revelation 5:9-10

King James Version

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

What a remarkable prophecy that shows how Jesus' sacrifice on the cross for us created redemption by His blood for all who accept Him as their Lord and Savior. And, as you said, that dominion over the earth will be given back to us in God's kingdom--we will be "...kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth"! Under God's leadership and inspiration combined with a new body, heart, mind, and spirit for us, we will have the responsibility and character to properly care for the earth that God has given us as our home with Him forever.

Revelation 21:10

King James Version

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

God's headquarters will be here on earth when the New Jerusalem is established during the new heavens and earth:

Revelation 21:24

King James Version

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

This is the promise and new age we look to as Christians. God the Father and Son will establish their throne on earth and dwell in the New Jerusalem with us forever. Our history of mismanagement of this planet and our lives in general as a species disconnected from the Source of true life will be a distant memory but an important one as well. 6000+ years of human history will document what life apart from God generates--emptiness, greed, lust, violence, destruction and death that Satan and his self-serving ideology is ultimately responsible for.

no brother I don’t mind at all

and amen good stuff whenever we communicate the thoughts always follow the prophetic line in tbe ot

“And, as you said, that dominion over the earth will be given back to us in God's kingdom--we will be "...kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth"!”

“And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

always a wonderful experience brother for that very reason I hear scripture as it already is when you communicate you have a good grasp of what’s written in the Bible’s pages and what it’s really saying as a whole message just a blessing to interact

adam the first man cursed mankind

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Lord man away from God

“And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


But Christ jesus is our way home to him

“For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:17-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

as adams sinful nature corrupted us and led us to sin Jesus holy and righteous nature is working to redeem us Adam caused man to be ejected from Eden Jesus promises a welcoming back home

In the beginning

therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”

The conclusion of our promise in Christ who we’re sinners bound for death

“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:7‬ ‭

“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Its all part of his plan to produce a people who won’t be corrupted and serve evil and harm one another of you think about Gods Will it’s truly about we people treating other people with love and honor and respect helping rather than hurting each other

its pretty amazing that his Will is all about us testing each other right it again just shows that his motivation is the love of mankind and our eventual good when death and sorrow will fade away and real life will begin

I really enjoy our fellowship as well, brother. It is a blessing for sure--thank you!

Within the context of this forum about the end of this age, Satan's/man's reign over this earth, and the beginning of a new age when Jesus Christ returns, I'm curious to read your thoughts on God's plan for the future. There are different perspectives on this, and it's fun to play with ideas since there are abstractions on how everything will unfold.

Here's a quick synopsis from what I've learned:

-Jesus will return in glory, the dead in Christ will rise to meet Him, and Christ will crush those who oppose Him here on earth, including the devil and his demons who will be bound during the millennium from influencing mankind

-Jesus' initial reign on earth will be 1000 years where the ideal human society will be established based out of Palestine and spreading across the globe

-There will be rebels later in the millennium who will try to overthrow Christ's leadership, the devil and his cohorts will be released to join them, and Christ will once and for all destroy our enemies

-After the millennium, there will be a second resurrection of the dead--those who never knew Christ will be given an opportunity to accept Him and His way of life

-The third resurrection will be those who have willfully chosen not to be part of God's Kingdom and will be thrown into the lake of fire. I see this as eternal death not people "roasting in hell" with the devil forever

-The new heavens and new earth

Can't wait to hear your thoughts on this one!...

I believe there are two seperate creations one is physical and material fleshly the other is spiritual but they are running concurrently that the kingdom is already in heaven and Jesus is already reigning with his saints there now .

When we talk about the resurrection of the dead the flesh and blood of this world is t going to be raised up but the one born of the spirit

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, ( brought to life ) except it die:

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: it is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy,

we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, ( spiritually) and we shall be changed. ( took it spiritual body ) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35-36, 42-44, 48-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The reason I’m saying this part is see we have lived on earth we’ve born adams image and we’ll die like Adam died on earth

But Christ is promising his story that is preached in the gospel that like him we will die on earth but will be raised up and taken into Gods kingdom that’s already made new when Jesus ascended and Satan was cast out into this earth

so you have this in heaven right now even from Johns vision of what occured in heaven when Jesus ascended to the throne

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

( at the same time that is in heaven )


Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5, 7, 9-12, 17‬ ‭

What im saying is Christ is already reigning many people who lived on earth are already reigning with him we just can’t see them or that part we have to hear and believe everything is new in heaven already but the church on earth is at war with Satan still

the saints are reigning already in heaven

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Revelation is a series of several visions that overlap for instance the seven seals are one layer the seven trumpets another which eventually leads to the seven vials showing the eventual fulfillment to come . Look at it as a series of several visions based upon old terrement prophetic symbology and terminology as opposed being a continuous chronological vision is what I mean

“And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6:12-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:15, 18-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:11-13‬ ‭

Im not sure this makes sense how I’ve explained it brother I don’t believe Jesus will return to this earth and reign for a thousand years I believe we’re meant to look at revelation as a several visions meant to be layered upon each other repetitively until we hear the same message Jesus and his apostles were foretelling of his perfect eternal kingdom to come

But importantly it’s just my own thoughts and doesn’t mean it’s the right thought I believe Gods kingdom is already established and many of his people are there with him like the martyrs described in the first resurrection the priests of God in heaven now before he comes he’s welcoming his people to where he is

“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:43‬ ‭

i don’t believe it’s a literal thousand years but is describing a long period of time that Christ will reign in heaven before he comes to raise the dead ( who weren’t his sheep and didn’t receive eternal life ) and judge the earth and eventually destroy the earth by fire and everything in it

Like Peter says in 2peter chapter 3 or like paul was assessing at the last trump

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. ( while we live in earth )

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:8-10, 13‬ ‭

i believe Peter is describing the consumption by fire of this tangible physical creation which he’s said prior this heaven and earths purpose is for the judgement of the ungodly but we have the promise of a new creation for eternal life

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the lake of fire is the place where the ungodly are punished makes sense to me that this creations destruction is what John sees as a lake of fire I don’t know brother I have some different views I think mainly I look at it like heaven is a place where Jesus and believers are already where his kingdom is already going and eventually he’ll come end this terrible world save those who believe for a better world he’s promised

abut again it’s just what I’ve personally read and believe it doesn’t mean I’m right

A good interlinear would answer that question. The word for "world" is Strong's #165 which is aiōnos, which is translated "ages" in most Bibles. The KJV always renders it "world".

Yes, there will be a "new heaven's and a new earth" but not in the literal sense. As Ecclesiastes 1:4 tells us; "One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever."

So what is the new heavens spoken of? It's it a symbolic heavens, a rulership, God's Kingdom reign over the earth, a new earth, as the former earth has passed away. The Scriptures tell us of three (3) worlds, or ages, that is the world that was, destroyed by the flood, the world that is, the current evil world, and the world to come, the new earth under Messiah's reign.

RR

6000 years, 1000 years as one day in the eyes of God,So we only experienced six days.We're still in the genesis section.

Amen--I feel the same way about what I learned back in my "seminary" days as a young man about God's future plans for humanity. What I outlined above was taught as dogma in my denomination, but as I've explored other Christians' views about Revelation, Daniel, the other prophets, and Jesus especially (e.g. Matthew chpts. 24-25), I am open and receptive as long as we keep the gospel and God's eternal truths at the forefront. I've seen a lot of folks get into serious trouble using prophecy to predict future events.

I need to keep my eyes on Jesus and becoming more like Him (I have a long way to go my friend to live up to His standards...). It sure is fun, however, to speculate about prophecy and that wild Revelation that the apostle John received on the island of Patmos especially. But as Paul said on these matters...

1 Corinthians 13:12-13

King James Version

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

The Bible is the most complicated text I have tackled in my career. But, the core doctrines are crystal clear, and Paul summarized the Christian faith quite simple in verse 13 above: it's all about Jesus who embodies faith, hope, and love. That's my goal in this life.

Good stuff, Pilgrim--I really appreciate your observations grounded in the Word of God!

In Mat. 24 it should be age not world. He was speaking a very covenantal context to the people He was speaking to. The coming end of the age when the covenant breakers would fall under judgment, and the end of that age fell while the new age was born within that generation as He said. This ALL happen as planned and on time just as Jesus said it would. It's actually unbelievably amazing. Now our King seated on His thrown with ALL authority in heaven and ON EARTH must reign until every enemy has been put under Him. Praise the King of King's and His power to transform His entire creation!!

Can you give references for the 3 ages? And if there are only 3, doesn't that mean, according to what you have shared, the same age after the flood is the one that exists today? Nothing changed significantly at the cross as far as ages?

I need to keep my eyes on Jesus and becoming more like Him (I have a long way to go my friend to live up to His standards...). It sure is fun, however, to speculate about prophecy and that wild Revelation that the apostle John received on the island of Patmos especially. But as Paul said on these matters...”


Amen brother that’s the goal for all of us to be honest when we arrive at that place where Jesus is our guiding light where we realize we Christian’s are literally his disciples we hear and believe and follow with that very goal of being made in his image the image of the son of God

“if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

one of the things I learned I can’t remember when but I began here

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then saw this

“The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: But the earth hath he given to the children of men.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭115:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and I thought okay we have one creation. But it has two realms the heavens for the spiritual and the earth for the physical

I then started seeing things I hadn’t before that supports the idea of teo layers of creation the earthly natural created part and the spiritual living eternal part

so things like these examples is where my thoughts came from just to try to sort of clarify

“The LORD is in his holy temple, The LORD's throne is in heaven: His eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭11:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭14:2‬ ‭

“And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:5-7‬ ‭

see in the ot we see those coming from heaven to earth the lord angels ect but we never see into heaven or hear the revelations of heavenly things until the New Testament so from this promise

“In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24,KJV‬‬

when a Christian dies in faith we should be expecting to wake up to real life in the kingdom of heaven after this worlds debt is settled we’ll have a completely new beginning without end where a new heaven and earth will be revealed and filled with the children of God and he himself an eternal family without limits of death or time

amen brother it never fails to be a blessing to me when we interact I hear or see something in your words and it’s always a blessing.

Amen! We have an eternal future to look forward to, and I love the verse you quoted above from Hebrews that gives us a glimpse into God's glorious realm. We will dwell in the "city of the living God" filled with angels, saints, Jesus Christ, and God the Father. The spiritual realm is invisible, but we can see it through our physical realm as Paul says,

Romans 1:20

King James Version

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I love being outdoors, and the summertime up here in Michigan is especially beautiful. My backyard is filled with trees, flowers, and vegetation that are several shades of green, and we have dozens of bird species along with squirrels and rabbits. The sky is deep blue and often filled with big puffy clouds from Lake Michigan on warm summer days. I can see God in His creation, especially in all the awesome people who are a part of my life.

And then, God provides a window into His throne room in heaven in Revelation 4:

Revelation 4:1-6

King James Version

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3 And He that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Like you noted, John had to go up to heaven in the spirit (probably like a dream or trance), and what he saw was so awesome that he had a hard time putting it into words. He described God as "jasper and a sardine stone", and the rainbow around the throne like an emerald.

There was thunder and lightning along with voices, 24 elders with crowns of gold, and four creatures full of eyes in front and back. It's just a remarkable vision, and it helps me to capture and somewhat visualize how glorious and beautiful our God and His dwelling is.

I love the image below from Dante's Paradiso and the mystic rose of saints that gives us an artist's impression on how linked together we will be in heaven with each other, the angels, and our Creator as well--true Atonement (at-one-ment).




My life as a pilgrim on this earth is focused on Christ, and what I need to accomplish through Him during this short life for sure. But, it sure is nice having those "mountain top" experiences that show the glory that lies ahead. "The sky's the limit" doesn't even come close to capturing what God has in store for those of us who love Him.

1 Corinthians 2:9-10

King James Version

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

The Holy Spirit reveals what heaven is all about for us as Christ's disciples. Heaven is being at one with Christ, one another, and His stunning creation. We can have that life now and ultimately enjoy it for all eternity together after we pass on!

amen wonderful !!

“He described God as "jasper and a sardine stone", and the rainbow around the throne like an emerald.”

what I was saying about prophetic terminology that vision John saw is rooted here when Ezekiel saw the throne and Christ upon it

“As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭1:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If you read the entire chapter and book you suddenly see a lot of revelation coming forth like the cherubim’s around the throne

“And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire. Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings. And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭1:4-7, 10, 25-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

John sees the same things from a different perspective it’s why the terminology follows prophecy


“Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures”

“As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle”

“And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle. This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar;

and I knew that they were the cherubims. And the likeness of their faces was the same faces which I saw by the river of Chebar, their appearances and themselves: they went every one straight forward.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭10:14, 20, 22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:2-3, 6-7‬ ‭

what John saw it’s meaning is in the ot is what I’m saying if we follow those old prophecies regarding the imagery in revelation all of it is covered and revealed

aim amazed how thouroughly the bi or interprets and explains it’s own self

Excellent reference back to Ezekiel, brother, which ties in nicely with John's trip to heaven described in Revelation. Paul references a journey to heaven as well:

2 Corinthians 12:2-4

King James Version

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

I like how Paul uses "the third heaven" and "paradise" to describe God's current throne location. Paul didn't know whether this happened in the body or out of the body, probably the latter, but the experience was that vivid and real. He heard "unspeakable words" that may have been similar to the "voices" John heard.

I wish Paul would have elaborated further! But, he couldn't and wanted to keep his focus on the gospel, especially with the wayward and immature congregation in Corinth. That's part of the "mystery" that God enjoys keeping us in because we as humans love a great mystery!

“I wish Paul would have elaborated further! “

have you ever read the apocalypse of Paul ? Not really sure about it but it’s an interesting read and story behind its discovery. It’s definately early is why I find it a good read but also it really does read like Paul’s concepts but then also a lot of things that aren’t really like Paul’s doctrine nothing co teary really just things he never spoke about but it seems he spent a lot of time and care crafting which subjects to touch upon in the few epistles we do have from him

i really wish we had more authentic scripture but it’s hard for me really to take anything as I do the Bible and what’s in it

i mention Paul’s apocalypse because it purports to be what Paul saw in a similar spiritual heavenly vision as johns but also touching on other thkngs then Wrote down and buried in the floor of a known early Christian home

thats the claim is what I mean I don’t know it’s a interesting read if you haven’t

I will check that out my friend and advise in the near future. I've never heard of that text, and it isn't a part of our canonical Bibles, so it is likely gnostic.

Like you, I keep my theology grounded on the Holy Bible. All works outside of this I look at from a literary perspective. They are not to be used for doctrine and proven teaching founded on Jesus Christ.