Matt. 5: 21-48. What does Christ mean when He says “you have heard, but I tell you?

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Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#81
I’m just wondering if you’ve ever really studied the book of Revelation.
I'm laughing. I've answered everything you spoke too. You may think that my studying has taken me in the wrong direction, but surely you believe I have at least considered the matters in Revelation.
That's why I asked you what the book was about. Can you give an outline of the book...perhaps 4-6 sections...and explain who the audience is and what God is revealing and why? Why is the book structured as it is?
Just because someone doesn't agree with your assessment of things, doesn't mean they haven't considered the matter.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#82
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

- Revelation 12:9 (KJV)
Sure. Luke 10:18. What does this teach about the timing of this event?
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#83
Don’t you know that the antichrist (Satan) comes first? That he deceives the whole world?
Do you believe the book of Revelation is in chronological order?
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
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#84
Sure. Luke 10:18. What does this teach about the timing of this event?
It really is up to you to study and find out if you don't know. I can explain it to you in detail and provide scriptures to support my claims, but you won't believe me.
 

selahsays

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May 31, 2023
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#85
Sure. Luke 10:18. What does this teach about the timing of this event?
Have you studied the 7 seals in the book of Revelation? You’ll find the answer there.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#86
God breathes His message through imperfect vessels who often misunderstand what God is trying to say to them and through them. That should be clear from posts in this forum. Also God did not give his perfect Way to Moses, but accommodated the culture of Moses' day, banning the worst excesses but moving the Israelite culture on closer to His perfect Way. Jesus revealed, lived out and taught the perfect Way that Moses and the prophets teaching imperfectly revealed, due to the limitations of their cultural conditioning.
Thar's why Jesus said,
"You've heard it said.... but I say to you...."
I cannot agree, I think that when God gave the fleshly commandments in the old testament, it was the perfect way for God to communicate with man as man was at that time.

Moses lived at a time when the nations worshipped man made idols, and the sacrifices to those idols were to feed the idols, even babies were sacrificed. When God created the Jewish race, God gave them commandments that were not only symbolic of the true lamb of God, (Christ), but was for the forgiveness of their sin. They were given a way to live that set them apart from all gentiles, and the gentiles thought they were strange because of them.

Until Christ came as a human and was crucified, the sacrificial system, I think, had no errors, but was perfect for them as God's ways for us are always perfect.
 

selahsays

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#88
I already have the time given in Luke...shortly before the cross.
Yes, but it is also prophetic.
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

- Revelation 12:7-9 (KJV)
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#89
Yes, but it is also prophetic.
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

- Revelation 12:7-9 (KJV)
Or...it is given as a time reference to understand the verses you quoted.

How do you suspect a 1st century believing Jew would have understood those verses in light of the whole of the teaching of Revelation?
 

Oliver9

New member
Nov 21, 2023
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#91
They actually don't. None of those verses have Jesus on earth. And nothing states Jesus needs to be on earth to reign.
And the saints are ruling and reigning in the earth currently. It's far from complete, but from 120 believers cowering in an upper room to millions, possibly billions, of believers today, incredible progress has been made.
And the way we know He is ruling and reigning is all authority has been given to Him and the gates of hell cannot prevail against the church He is building. The great thing about spiritual kingdoms...they only require you to be there in Spirit.
But what about Acts 1:11, where the angels told the disciples after Jesus had ascended bodily into heaven, "This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."? Doesn't that mean Jesus will come back physically to earth?
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#92
But what about Acts 1:11, where the angels told the disciples after Jesus had ascended bodily into heaven, "This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."? Doesn't that mean Jesus will come back physically to earth?
Yes it does. The question is: has He already done so?
All the scripture written about the second coming and rapture were written to 1st century believers. The epistles speak with urgency concerning these matters, as if their readers would experience these things. The Lord Himself spoke of the current generation experiencing these things. And the book of Revelation is about the judgment of God on an unfaithful people who killed His only begotten Son. What do you suppose the owner of the vineyard will do when He returns?
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#93
Only in a spiritual sense. Not in any other sense.




No, he doesn't.
What do you believe the kingdom of God consists in? Are not all the visible things of creation designed in such a way as to reveal the invisible things of God? All things are spiritual to those who are spiritual.
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
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#94
Yes it does.
Yes it does. The question is: has He already done so?
All the scripture written about the second coming and rapture were written to 1st century believers. The epistles speak with urgency concerning these matters, as if their readers would experience these things. The Lord Himself spoke of the current generation experiencing these things. And the book of Revelation is about the judgment of God on an unfaithful people who killed His only begotten Son. What do you suppose the owner of the vineyard will do when He returns?
So are you saying that Jesus has already returned?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#98
You believe the throne of His glory is earthly?
Yes,

[I think I put this in another recent thread] Isaiah 24:21-23 says,

Isa 24:21
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall PUNISH the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. [see Rev19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5... at the time-slot of His Second Coming to the earth / Armageddon]
Isa 24:22
And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit ["pit" often referring to death/the grave], and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited/PUNISHED. [note that a time-period SEPARATES these two distinct "PUNISH" words; this latter one corresponds to the GWTj, well after His Second Coming to the earth Rev19; the "Amill-teaching" that there is NO CORROBORATION elsewhere in Scripture to what we see in Rev19-20 about the 1000 years (a period of time) FOLLOWING His Second Coming to the earth, is proven wrong... because this very passage DOES corroborate! It's providing the VERY SAME SEQUENCE: a period of time BETWEEN the TWO "PUNISH" words in this passage]
Isa 24:23
Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.





Another passage is Acts 3:12-26,

where the "Amill-teachings" (and others) incorrectly say that Jesus' throne [David's throne] is transferred to now be located up in heaven ever since His ascension... but they only say this because:

1) they CONFLATE the TWO distinct "raise" issues (re: Jesus) in this passage -

a) "raised" to a position of prominence ['A Prophet... raise up unto you of your brethren like unto me [/Moses]'] in His earthly ministry BEFORE the Cross (vv.22-23,26); and

b) "raised" from the dead AFTER the Cross (vv.15,13a);



2) where Acts 3:24 states, "Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days," the "Amill-teachings" (and others) incorrectly surmise that this verse is speaking (re: the "[have] foretold of these days" thing) to mean David's throne now being located UP IN Heaven;

whereas what "[have] foretold of these days" actually refers to His "suffering servant" days (His earthly ministry, rejection, and death on the Cross; ... "His Servant Jesus" vv.13,26;
See also Jesus' words in Lk19:14 "We will not have this man to reign over us," reflective of both 1Sam8:7's "for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them"
and Gen37:8's [re: Joseph's FIRST dream [=Jesus' FIRST advent] "And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words." [whereas Joseph's SECOND dream=Jesus' SECOND advent, events surrounding])...

... which ("Suffering Servant") aspect Peter's listeners (v.12 "ye men of Israel") HAD OVERLOOKED / BYPASSED in their focusing only on the "reigning King" aspects of OT prophecies, thus fulfilling that very thing in having Jesus put to death (vv.13-17). THAT is what "[have] foretold of these days" (v.24) is speaking to, NOT the idea that David's throne is now located UP THERE (no longer located on the earth). The "Amill-teachings" (and others) are incorrect in this matter.





Hope that helps you see my perspective a little better, though I think you and I may have discussed some of this in previous threads... not sure. :)

Have a great day! = )
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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#99
^ At the same time-slot that Matt25:31-34 takes place (His Second Coming TO THE EARTH), will be the same time that "the 12" were told THEY will "sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel" per Matt19:28.

How is this explained [away] by the "Amill-teachings" (and others), because in their view "the 12 tribes of Israel" are no longer pertinent in the time-frame they suggest this speaks to...



Matthew 19:28 [Lk22:30] -

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. [COMPARE with Matt25:31-34's wording, as to TIMING]










Luke 22:30 -

That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
 
Dec 18, 2023
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we all have our measure of faith selah. He has a very valid point for his belief, but you would have to read rev 1 for that.

You may have missed his reason why he believes this. It is actually the same as mine,

I actually believe he's my long lost brother from 3 thousand years ago 🙂