The Security Of The Believer

God holds even believers responsible at a Judgment.

“For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God…” (1 Peter 4:17).

So if that is the case, then it is not all God forcing them to be a certain way.
Yes, God works in us, but it is a walk (Amos 3:3), and it not some form of forced coercion like Calvinism.

@Bible_Highlighter says “This is very fanciful and imaginative but it has no substance or basis in the Word of God. The ”fruit“ in John 15 is a reference to works.”

selahsays: A true Christian will always produce fruit.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
- Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV)

Agreed! The fruit itself does not save, it is produced as a result of Salvation. God Bless

First, to help you out, you can learn how to multi-quote by checking out my help tutorial by clicking on the spoiler button (if it sounds like your cup of tea). Note: These were instructions I created from another forum, but they are basically the same.


Second, to answer your post:

Well, before you seemed to say that George Sodini may have been saved. So are you saying you have changed your position since last we spoken?

You need to study what it means to be justified and stop putting out false doctrines—traditions of man which are not biblical.

You should read the whole chapter to get the context. It is referring to an earthly judgment that was coming. Unbelievers would suffer for their sin, and believers for the cause of reproached for the name of Christ.
Further, because Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, we know it's not eternal judgment in view.
Peter also tells them what the suffering produces in them.
And just in general, where eternal judgments are spoken of, there is always a separation. Since there are those who associate themselves with the things of God and the church who are not saved, when judgment begins God begins cleaning His own house and works His way out.

To help you understand where I am coming from, I believe in two aspects of salvation.


See here to learn more.

As for your statement about how works do not result in salvation. Well, works are merely a part of the Sanctification Process. But yes, doing works is salvific because they are a part of your faith (But this is only the case AFTER we are initially saved by God‘s grace through faith without works).

Works for Salvation Verses:

#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?” (James 2:21) (Note: This work by Abraham in offering up Isaac upon the altar in James 2:21 is referred to as “faith” in Hebrews 11. It says, “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:” - Hebrews 11:17).

#4. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#5. “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).

#6. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#7. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#8. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#9. “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46). “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-36).

#10. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19)

#11. “And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28) (An example of loving your neighbor is given to us in the Parable of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-37).


(Continued in my next post):

#12. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#13. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire (Matthew 7:19).

Supplementary Passage (Context):


What sayings of Jesus are they not doing?

Two chapters earlier, Jesus says,


(The Immediate context also refers to how those who bring forth evil fruit are the corrupt trees, i.e., inwardly they are ravening wolves or false prophets and yet those who bring forth good fruit are good trees):

”Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

#14. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary Verse (Context):


Note: Notice the first half of John 15:2, Jesus is saying that the branch that does not bear fruit is IN Him.

Jesus says, “every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away”

This branch IN Jesus that bears not fruit, He “taketh away”;

This obviously is referring to how they will be taken away to be cast into the fire (Based on the context - John 15:6).

#15. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

#16. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (Note: Walking in the light = Loving your brother according to the indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11; Loving your brother is a good work).

#17. “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” (1 Timothy 5:8).

#18. “And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: (Matthew 25:25-26). “And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30). “And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:20-21).

#19. “…I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. …” (Revelation 3:1-3). “Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,…” (Revelation 3:4).

#20. "These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; " (Jude 1:12).

As we can see, these false believers mentioned in Jude are without fruit.
This is why we are to constantly affirm to others to maintain good works (Titus 3:8).

In fact, Titus 3:14 says,
"And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful."

So we are to affirm works to other believers CONSTANTLY.

The brethren are to learn to maintain good works so that they are not unfruitful.

That's why.

If one is unfruitful, then they are like the false believers whose fruit is withered, and they are without fruit twice dead, and the roots pluck them up, as Jude warns.


Please address at least 2-3 of these verses above.

Sorry, I did not provide the link to learn more on the two aspects of salvation as taught in the Bible.

Here is my post to check it out.

49 pages later and some are still using the word "most". Example page 49 "Most in the OSAS crowd do not believe 1 John 1:9 is salvific. They do not believe they have to confess of sin to be forgiven of sin". How many did we ask this question to? Was it asked here on this site because I think I missed it. Were talking about sin yet saying "most" is a lie. I can say "most" of my family or "most" of my Chruch since I know them talk to them.. do we understand yet?

Not here to prove anything. pfft if were going to quote Matt-John they were still under following the law all 613. Its like some quote 1st John. I pray we understand we can apply it to us today but he was talking to a group that believed they had no sin. So we then read "if we say we have no sin". Same with Paul talking to a group of Jewish believers that when they sinned would go back and try to offer a sacrifice for that sin. He or the sweet holy Spirit said there is no more sacrifice for sin. Christ cannot die again. Its like Heb what 10 26 I believe. Not about believers. Those that have heard that know Christ died for the sin of the world and then reject that.. they have no hope because Christs sacrifice is all there is.

Theres so much Rom 5 and 6-7. He died we died He rose we rose? We now set in heavenly places? So we have to back up to just why did Christ die? Its not written "sins" its the "sin" of the world. What is born again/born from above? Was a new man created? New spirit? What that spirit can sin? Paul talked about "it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me." See who are you now after Christ found you gave you a new spirit? Put on the new man which after God is created in righteousness (right standing with God) and true holiness. Jump to verse 31 " forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake has forgiven you". Its done. Just as its written, does this mean ooh I can sin all I want so grace can abound? God forbid.

I can't find any verse or even a hint that Christ only died for past sins. But just to say that your missing just what happened when He died and rose. Born from above is not some simple Choice. If you eat of this tree you will die. Who was YOU? For they didn't die yet they did. That part that died Christ made new when He died and rose from the grave. So GOD for Christs sake has not still doing not only if but has forgiven you. Its not if you never sin or always sin its what Christ already did. Those that I know read heard watched that are secure in their faith know they will not some day fall away. They the ones I know heard watched also repent when ever we sin. As if everyone that died repented. That there depends on me not Him. Some still ( I believe) can not except the free gift for its to easy. They must do something

Geesh, Bible class 101 is going to be full in the Kingdom!

And you need to study and pray over James 2:24. Not only is Romans 5:1 is true, but also James 2:24 is true. We are justified by works and not by faith alone. This is before God because if you were to read James 1:21, you see it talking about receiving the engrafted word that can save our souls. Also, James talks about how Abraham was justified by works when he offered Isaac upon the alter. But if you wer to read Hebrews 11, it says BY FAITH Abraham offered up Isaac upon the alter. So they are saying the same thing. The works are merely faith. They are the work of faith that Paul mentions in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. Also, James says faith without works is dead. Can a dead faith save anyone? Surely not. Also, there was nobody present to watch Abraham sacrifice Isaac. So he was not being justified exclusively before men.

Hello Bible_Highlighter. Thanks for your reply. It's a long reply so it may take a while to get back to you. But briefly to let you know where I'm coming from. My family were Roman Catholics for many generations, they left via the Catholic Charismatic movement into a Charismatic Church, I would no longer associate myself with the Catholic Church or Charismatic movement. In my experience they both believe that you can lose your salvation, they both rely to an extent on their own works to justify themselves and I believe that the fruit produced by this wrong attitude is often not good fruit because the heart is not right. Doing 'works' as a attitude of gratitude, because of what Jesus has done for us, whoever has been forgiven much loves much, this is a good attitude.

I have found those who teach that you can lose your salvation to be like the Pharisee in this parable the Lord shared with us:

Luke 18: 9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Confident in his own righteousness, comparing himself to others, looking down on others, absolutely toxic. Can good fruit grow in a toxic environment or from a heart that is not right? The humble heart knows they cannot be saved by their own works and are grateful to the Lord for his mercy. This is the environment in which good fruit can be produced.

God Bless You

Romans 8:1 in the King James Bible says there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT. So you cannot walk after sin, and you must walk after the Spirit so as not to be under the Condmenation.

One more time. Every Christian will do good works. Why? Because they are saved.

Whether you realize or not, your words condemn many people on this site, including me.

What must I do to be saved? Since you have the key to salvation, I think it only fair that you witness to us the EXACT way to be saved.

And be specific, we have to do it exactly like you.

Thats what the loss of salvation theology does not understand. They don't even know what a divine good work is. They just know human good (evil.)

And it is very sad. They could be out contending for THE faith, rather they contend for their faith. They are losing out on the Christian way of life. It's sad.

There are many biblical problems with the Catholic Church and the Charismatic movement.
I am strongly against the Catholic church, Charismatic churches, and the Pentecostal church.

Yes, I agree their hearts are not right with God. But why? Is it because they believe you need to have works as a part of salvation?
Well, not exactly. The real problem is that they came up with man made traditions and they do not accept everything that the Bible says and they justify certain sins because they are pleasurable to them. The same is the case in Protestantism (Note: Please keep in mind the Bible is my final Word of authority here). Okay. I have a challenge for you. if you were ever to just take a step back, and think objectively about this and look at the Protestant church as if you were an outside observer or a detective, you may see things that are hard to notice while having a mindset that is on the inside. Write down all the sayings you hear from OSAS Protestant teachers. Then compare their words to the words we see in the Bible. What you will find is that their words are not exactly to be found in the Bible. You will hear things like, “We are saved solely by believing on the finished work of the cross!” You will hear others say things like, “God alone saves.” Others will say, “sin is missing the mark.” Others will say that for us believers, “repent means a change of mind.” The list of unbiblical sayings goes on and on. At the end of the day, you will have to decide to be objective to what God’s Word says over what man’s words say. That is what this is really about. If you were paying attention, many in this thread who are for OSAS have been doing back flip twists through hoops of fire to try and change what the Bible plainly says when they are confronted with a verse that refutes their belief system.

Well, the Bible does teach this truth, but it is not the sole truth on the matter.
We do see the woman who was a sinner (past tense) who kissed Jesus feet love much because she was forgiven much (Luke 7:36-50).
We even see the apostle Paul say that he labored more than his brethren, but it was not himself, but it was the grace of God within him (1 Corinthians 15:10). Paul no doubt was moved greatly by God’s grace in that he was forgiven of all the horrible things he did towards believers before he was converted. So no doubt. God’s grace can change and affect us beyond our imagining and it is key to being fruitful. But we are warned. 2 Peter 1:9 says, “But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.”

But we have also realize that there are things God tells us to do, as well.
It’s not always automatic.
How so?

We are told:


We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

I just seen this. Honestly. We agree on this truth in Scripture. But that is not the final word on the matter.
We have to look at the whole counsel of God’s Word on the matter.

I 100% agree with Luke 18:9-14. It is a poignant and powerful parable on warning us believers of the dangers of self righteousness and denying God’s grace or allowing His grace to shine.

There are some believers out there who would fit this description. For example: Adam at “Abide in the Word YouTube Channel“ would fit the description of this belief if I am understanding his belief correctly (From the few videos I have seen from him). if I am correct on understanding his belief, it appears like he does not believe like I do in the fact that we are initially saved by God’s grace through faith without works. So we are saved by a belief alone, but is only when we are initially saved. God’s grace (and not works) is also foundational to our salvation because if we slip up into a sin on rare occasion, we do not go out to do a good work to absolve that sin. But we can confess of our sins to the Lord Jesus Christ to be forgiven of sin according to 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 2:1. Let us boldly come to the throne of grace indeed. But the Pharisee made it all about Works and no grace whatsoever. He thought he was better than the one who was saved by God’s grace. But keep in mind this grace has to align with the grace in Titus 2:11-12, and not the false version of grace as shown in Jude 1:4.

The Pharisee also needed to learn the lesson that he is nothing and it was God who ultimately does the good work in Him and that without God He could do nothing. All praise should go to the Lord for any good done in his life. God is the One who makes us truly stand or fall. It is not solely our strength and power, but it is the Lord’s strength and power to do what is good and right.

But nowhere is this parable a defense for OSAS which leads men to think they can sin and still be saved. Yes, men can be in sin. When we first came to the Lord, our old life was one of sin. Yes, believers can stumble into sin on rare occasion, but they can go to God’s grace By confessing their sins and forsaking them and not say, I am saved even if I don’t confess or forsake these sins. I am already saved despite my being in sin. That’s not what the Parable is teaching. We see the Tax Collector seeking forgiveness of his sin with the Lord and not justifying that sin.

As for works issue:

Well, all I can do is encourage you to be a detective and look again at the verses I posted to you on how works do play a part in our salvation after we are saved by God’s grace. The key is not to fight with what they say trying to explain them away. We should believe and live by every word of God. Read the chapters for the verses I posted. Read it in context. But don’t read it with a preconceived belief with Protestantism talking in your ear. Be free from the voices of others. Just believe what Scripture says. Ask God to reveal the truth of the Scriptures to you by the Holy Spirit as you read the verses I have posted. If you follow that path, I am confident you will come to the same conclusion as me. if not, I believe all things will be revealed at the Judgment, and you will see the truth then.

Hold on..not every Christian will be continuously faithful though. It's not only faithful believers in heaven. There are believers whose works gets burned up because they weren't continuously faithful who still go to heaven.

Well, I am not looking to throw down the hammer of Judgment upon any one person.
I did not write the Bible. I am just a messenger and I do strive to talk in love and grace on this topic.
Topics of Soteriology on Christian forums are bound to lead to disagreements.
Differences of opinion should not lead to thinking I care less about anyone here.
We should all strive to be patient and be willing to share our beliefs with Scripture even if we may strongly disagree.

Also, the door swings both ways. I am sure there are believers who think I am not saved because of what I believe.
I take no offense in that because I know the truth.
However, we each approach this differently for our own reasons.
My authority is the Bible and the Bible alone.
But, think for a moment. What if OSAS was a a belief that was man made?
What if men are just taking this man made belief and they are using that as their filter or lens when they read the Bible?
Imagine what verses would be changed or how one would view the Bible differently if that was the case?
Words in the Bible could not be believed at face value anymore. Words would have to be changed.
Rarely will people look at things objectively or look at the motivations of others as if they were a detective.
To begin, just write down all the sayings you hear by OSAS believers or Protestant teachers in a Google or Word document.
Then compare these sayings to the Bible.
Do they exist? Can you find them?

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:31).
But what does believing in Jesus mean?

I have two helpful posts on this that I already posted that you can check out here, and here.

I hope it helps.

May the Lord Jesus Christ’s love shine upon you and your family today.