The Trinity

No, it is not!

Not really. It was always intended to be animals in the old covenant, then one man as a symbolic Lamb one time.

The text says -
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

This does say that Jesus Christ takes away our sins, so that God has no cause left to be angry and at war with us. But it does not seem to be saying that the transfer of our sins to Him and our justification are by means of a process of penal substitution, i.e. Jesus being punished in our place with the exact sum of punishment that the sum total of sins paid for deserves.
A Christus Victor interpretation of 1 John 2:2 would see the means by which our sins were taken away is our entry into union with Christ, the one who was sinlessly victorious over sin, the world and the devil so that God exalted Him to everlasting dominion over creation (Col. 2:10-15). Simply becoming "in the sinless Christ" through repentance and faith leaves our sins behind, because in Him is no sin.

Jesus wasn't a symbolic lamb. He was what all the lambs was pointing toward. That's why sacrifice ended with Him...no more need. God's wrath for sin has been satisfied.

A propitiation is a satisfaction for offense. Jesus satisfied the righteous anger of God over sin. Now He advocates for us having paid our debt in full.
On what basis do you believe God forgives sin?

Yes, he was. He was not a literal lamb.



Taht's called a shadow or type.



Nope. He will still have lots of wrath for the sinful. It is only those who believe and repent that will not face that wrath.

Lamb is symbolic. But Jesus isn't. He is the sacrifice foreshadowed in Genesis when Abraham said God would provide Himself a Lamb. John the Baptist identified Him as well...the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world. Bulls and goats covered sin. Jesus took away our sins.

What was the message about who Jesus is that the first Christians preached as their first presentation of the gospel to the unchurched?

Let's look at Paul's evangelism to the Jews and God-fearing gentiles in Antioch.


15And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

16Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

17The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.

18And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.

19And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.

20And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.

21And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.

22And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

23Of THIS MAN'S SEED hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel A SAVIOUR, JESUS:

24When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

25And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

26Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

27For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew HIM not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

28And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that HE SHOULD BE SLAIN.

29And when they had fulfilled all that was written of HIM, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

30But God raised HIM from the dead:

31And HE was seen many days of them which came up with HIM from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

32And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that HE HATH RAISED UP JESUS again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art MY SON, this day have I begotten THEE.

34And as concerning that he raised HIM up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give YOU the sure mercies of David.

35Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer THINE HOLY ONE to see corruption.

36For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

37But HE, WHOM GOD RAISED AGAIN, saw no corruption.

38Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through THIS MAN is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

39And BY HIM all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

40Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;

41Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

42And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

43Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

Jesus is presented as A MAN who fulfilled the prophecies about a particular MAN God promised to send. Nowhere is it explained that this MAN is also GOD, and some of the audience received the gospel and they were encouraged by Paul to continue in the grace they had believed in and received.

If Paul converted people without preaching "Jesus is God" out of the gate, but they came to understand Jesus is God as they matured in Christ, why are religious people demanding that Jesus is "God" be preached and believed in before a hearer can truly become born again and a member within the body of Christ?

Repentance from going our own way and putting faith in the One God has accepted as sinless and has appointed King of kings and Lord of lords.

I think the key to this answer is in the weight in the authority of the Law given of Christ v. the Law given of Moses. In speaking of shadows of that which is to come, the Ark of the Covenant is a type also. And that contain within it, a bowl of manna, Aaron's rod, and the tablets which all of were placed under the mercy seat whereupon the once a year offering of the High Priest was made once a year at Yom Kippur (a day like Purim). Yet, even while professing that the true substance of the shadow has come, still so very many insist on pulling the rod, manna, and tablets back out from under the mercy seat.

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. Forgiveness is based on the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. Sins are forgiven because they have been atoned for. God's justice demands payment for sin. God can't remit sin without payment and still be just.

Unto us a child is born and unto us a Son is given. And the government shall be upon his shoulder. His name shall be called Wonderful, Councilor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of peace.

Philip said to Jesus, 'show us the Father and it will suffice.'. Jesus replied, 'if you've seen me, you've seen the Father. The words that I've spoken were given to me from my Father. If you can't believe my words then believe my works which I also received from the Father.'

Jesus said in Jn 16 'the Spirit speaks not of his own, but whatever he hears, that shall he speak and he will reveal things to come.'

There are three that bear record in heaven; the Father, the word, and the Spirit, and these three are one.'

In Gen, the Lord said, 'Let us make man in our image, and after our likeness.'

Scripture tells us that we're body, soul, and spirit. Of the body, we're flesh, blood, and bone.

Jn 1 In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things that were made were made by the word and without the word was not anything made that was made.

When Jesus was baptized of John, the Father spoke from heaven and the Spirit in the form of a dove alighted upon his shoulder.

Jesus, who knew no sin was made to be sin for us that we might be the righteousness of God in Christ.
(this is the greatest miracle in all eternity). While upon the cross in our place, under the curse of the law, which is death, he cried out, "my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me." The Father and the Spirit made no response as they had forsaken him because of our sins. To my thinking, this was like a body being torn from its soul and spirit.

The goat took sin away.


Lev 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

The penalty for sin is death. Jesus had no sin and therefore was not supposed to die. He allowed himself to die so that life would be owed to Him , which he gives to all whom the Father gives Him. Many are called, but few are chosen.
In God's kingdom there is perfect justice and mercy. Humanity proved to be imperfect because the motivation for living is self and everyone sins. As descendants of Adam and Eve, we are born with the knowledge of good and evil and therefore are under the law to do good. We are headed to damnation as soon as we are born. What are God's choices?
If He condemns everyone, He would be merciless, which He is not. If He saves everyone, there would be sin, chaos, and disobedience in His kingdom. His only choice to show His mercy is to save a few by fixing them. You are baptized in the name of the Father when He chooses you to be one of the few. You are baptized in the name of the Son when you put your trust in His death for the forgiveness of your sins. You get baptized in the name of the Holy Spirit when the Spirit of the Father and Son enters your being in order to perfect you by changing your motivation for living from love of self to love for God first and everyone else as you love yourself. When Christ baptizes us with the Holy Spirit, we are born again and become acceptable to the Father because we obey the Spirit of the Law as given by Jesus Christ.
1 John 3: 23-24 And this is His commandment, that we should believe on the name of the Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment. And he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him (as part of His spiritual body), and He in him (the Holy Spirit).

Which biblical text are you getting the idea of blood being a payment for sins? I can't remember where that is... if it is there at all. Where does the bible speak of the blood being a payment?

That does not seem to answer my question, which was...

If Paul converted people without preaching "Jesus is God" out of the gate, but they came to understand Jesus is God as they matured in Christ, why are religious people demanding that Jesus is "God" be preached and believed in before a hearer can truly become born again and a member within the body of Christ?

So, when John the Baptist declares that Jesus is the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world, what is he teaching?

Hebrews 9:22.

I would argue that Paul preached Jesus is God right out of the gate just as John did as example in his address in the Areopagus.

1 Corinthians 11:1
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

I only obey the word of God and the word of the son, Man Made Doctrine sometimes is wrong, not all are wrong, but some of it is A terrible mistake.

I am not confused about whether to worship God or Jesus, because they are one, and that is the way of life, they teach us the way of life.

What God teaches is not just about eternal life in a single life, but also about how our world should always be full of vitality.

However, the reality is that due to Man Made Doctrine sometimes is wrong,the world is facing ultimate destruction as The Revelation tells us.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This refers to not following the path of life, the world will face destruction, and those who do not believe will get the perish.and these who believe will have everlasting life.He who endureth to the end shall be saved..