He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

Respectfully, mailmandan, I have a little different take than you do regarding Abraham's belief (and I hope I can explain this in a way that is easily understandable, but which I may not be able to do). Anyway, I believe that Abraham's belief came from the faith reckoned unto him from God (see Rom 4:9) but it was not Abraham's belief of or from himself: belief was God's gift to him which belief comes to all those chosen by God unto salvation. Notice in Rom 4:9, that faith was reckoned by God to Abraham in order for him to be made righteous, and through which (see Gen 15:6), Abraham would then attribute his belief, to God's righteousness.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

I believe in Genesis 15:6, that Abraham was attributing his belief to the LORD's righteousness; that is, the second "he" represents himself (Abraham); the "him", the LORD. IOW, as a result of Abraham being given belief, Abraham could then comprehend that his belief was from/by the LORD, given to him for righteousness, thereby realizing that it was God who was righteous. To paraphrase:
"And he believed in the LORD and Abraham counted it to the LORD for righteousness".

[Gen 15:6 KJV] 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Only God's (Jesus's) faith is righteous, man's is not: all righteousness comes only through/by Christ.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

If you need me to clarify, please let me know.

The Lord says the following thru the Apostle James:

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness (walking after the flesh – see Gal 6:7,8), and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

One is justified by faith AND by works.... and the man that believes justification is by faith only is a "vain" man as we see in James 2:20.

I agree to some degree. I agree him offering Isaac proved Abraham to be faithful. James says it also fulfilled God's declaration of Abraham being righteous.

Abraham proved, by his works, himself to be faithful before Gen. 15?
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise.

When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Yet Abraham was still accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In Genesis 12, we read that Abraham went out of his country, from his family and his father's house to see a land that God will show him. That's only part of the story and yes it was by or "out of" faith that Abraham went, BUT it was not until Genesis 15:5, AFTER God brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” *VERSE 6 - And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Just as we see in Romans 4:3 - “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

Let me ask you. Paul makes a point in Romans 3, then in ch. 4 he uses a Abraham as an example to prove his point. What is his point using Abraham, based on the context?

Romans 3:21-28 speaks loud and clear.:

Romans 3:21 - But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:1-6 also speaks loud and clear:

Romans 4:1 - What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

The context does not negate this.

I was hoping to get your understanding. Also, you stopped a little short. Context. Paul is not making the point you want him to.

In John 6:29, Jesus said - "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?"

So, by Jesus' play on words here, He was not implying that believing is just "another" work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. Also, through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption).

I've heard that argument before but I believe that Abraham exercised faith in the Lord and it was accounted to him for righteousness. In Genesis 15:5-6, we read that God brought Abraham outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” And he (Abraham) believed in the Lord, and He (God) accounted it to him for righteousness. God did not believe for him. Abraham chose to believe.

In regard to Philippians 3:9, we have the faith "of" Christ vs. faith "in" Christ argument. Some argue through our faith/trust in Christ while others argue through Christ's faithfulness to save us, and faith belongs to Christ or originates in Christ. Others simply argue through the faith we receive from Christ to trust Him.

Now here is how I see it. Unless the Father draws us and enables us (John 6:44, 65) we would NEVER come to Christ and place our faith in Him for salvation all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but that doesn't mean He forces us to place our faith in Christ for salvation. We are not simply zapped with saving faith in Christ with no choice in the matter. We must choose to place our faith in Christ for salvation.

Elsewhere in scripture, we see that it's our faith. 1 Peter 1:9 - receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. So, although faith does not originate within us and it's not something that we simply conjure up through the flesh, but once drawn and enabled by the Father, we choose to exercise faith in Christ for salvation.

Paul's point is crystal clear to me.

Could you please share it.

Those who are born of God may have previously walked in sinful ways, but no longer. (1 John 3:7-10) Only genuine believers are new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) and have put on the new man and walk in newness of life. Perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by works along with promoting straw man arguments and slander is not the Lord's game plan and it's also not how we put on the new man/put on the Lord Jesus Christ and walk in newness of life. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" (pseudo) Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and sometimes it's easy to tell them apart.

"Put off," wrote Paul, "the old man," and "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness"(Ephesians 4:22,24); And "put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." (Ephesians 6:11) The allusion is putting off old clothes and putting on new ones, to enclosing oneself in armor, etc. When a soldier puts on armor, he is imitating his superiors and is revealing himself to be a soldier. One does not put on a uniform in order to become a soldier. Simply putting on a soldier's uniform of a make believer does not make one become a soldier. Once one is first made a soldier and then is able to put on and wear the uniform that distinguishes or marks them as a soldier.

I often hear works-salvationists cite these verses in order to support their claim that man is saved by works. If one reads Romans 2:5-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works, as demonstrated by you. However, as you read and study these passages, it’s critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose our heart condition and salvation status.

These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit of, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 3:24-28; 4:4-6; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Descriptive of unbelievers.

Sadly, the tares outnumber the wheat by far.

You lost me. Jesus plainly said that should someone truly believe then it is both a work and not only a work but God's work. I don't think there is any more to it than that.



Natural man cannot of himself exercise true faith nor believe. Spiritual wisdom is hidden from the unsaved. By the fact that one may think they have self-produced faith means that they haven't. Faith (Christ's faith) was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness: God imputed His faith to Abraham causing Abraham's belief in God. It comes as a result of salvation, not its cause.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.



I would first say that our faith doesn't produce salvation, our faith is from salvation - salvation produces faith, faith does not produce salvation.
Actually, we are in fact "zapped" with true faith of/in Christ and that through the fruit of the Holy Spirit upon becoming born-again from being saved. When someone is saved, they are unconditionally given a new spirit and a renewed mind becoming a new person, with a part of that being faith.

Please observe that one of the fruits of the Spirit is faith.

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Please observe that to believe in Christ is "given", but only to those chosen to salvation.

[Phl 1:29 KJV]
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Please observe that only upon salvation, not before salvation, those saved are renewed by the Holy Spirit in the knowledge of Christ, which includes faith.

[Col 3:10 KJV]
10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:




The Bible breaks down the salvation process into two parts: 1) being justified during one's lifetime, and 2) being saved from God's wrath on the last day - the day of the Lord Jesus - when complete salvation (or eternal judgement) is realized. However, only those of #1 will take be saved from His wrath of #2 (future). 1 Peter 1:9, is referring to the #2, but for them the #1 part had already occurred, but that by Christ.

[Rom 5:9-10 KJV]
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

[1Co 5:5 KJV]
5 To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Different contexts.

So James when he writes about being justified by works... Abrahams work of being prepared to offer up his son Isaac, was 'justified by works'..

But he was justified, not by works, when he was saved earlier, when he believed.

So in James ..all these examples are of works pleasing to God.. but these people would have believed and been justified for salvation earlier ..just like Abraham.

A just act before God

A just salvation from God

Different things.. different contexts

For we have been saved by GRACE through FAITH, and not of ourselves. It is the gift of God. Not of works lest anyone should boast.

Salvation is by grace, But it is recieved through faith. It does not come after faith..

I was hoping to get your understanding. Also, you stopped a little short. Context. Paul is not making the point you want him to.

I am amazed at those who deny the power of God to change people.

it means, God tells you to do something, you do it, it's justified by God as Good Works.
it is God doing the Works, by having you do them.


this is not about some moral person thinks i should donate to the goodwill + get a tax break.
those are self works and self gain.


Justified Works: means, you won't be gaining anything monetary, but will be gaining Spiritually

True. I don't mean self gain. But justified for eternal salvation is different to acts of service pleasing to God. They aren't dependent on eachother.

Is this the time when people staret telling us Paul was a dirtty, rotten, filthy sinner who lives a sinful lifestyle while being an Apostle at the same time?

I've heard people make this claim on numerous occasions.

Is this the time when people staret telling us Paul was a dirtty, rotten, filthy sinner who lives a sinful lifestyle while being an Apostle at the same time?

I've heard people make this claim on numerous occasions.






Yes, He changes people initially when they get born again... but many are being deceived to believe it'[s OK to continue in their sinful lifestyles like they were before getting saved and preachers are telling them they are still saved while living in sin.

Do you think the Lord somehow FORCES people to quit living in sin at some point?

Or, do you think they are still going to Heaven even if the continue in their sinful lifestyles?

Yes, He changes people initially when they get born again... but many are being deceived to believe it'[s OK to continue in their sinful lifestyles like they were before getting saved and preachers are telling them they are still saved while living in sin.

Do you think the Lord somehow FORCES people to quit living in sin at some point?

Or, do you think they are still going to Heaven even if the continue in their sinful lifestyles?