Does God Know From All Eternity Who Will Die Having Rejected Sound Doctrine?
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"in the beginning" strongly implies that there is a beginning. it's not referring to the beginning of the heavens or the earth because those are created "in" that beginning.
there's nothing left for it "beginning" to refer to but time; the beginning of time.
after the things done in that beginning it is called the "first" day.
in John 1:1 God already "was" in the beginning. strongly implying that He pre-exists time. hence time is not a property of God but of physical creation.
there's nothing left for it "beginning" to refer to but time; the beginning of time.
after the things done in that beginning it is called the "first" day.
in John 1:1 God already "was" in the beginning. strongly implying that He pre-exists time. hence time is not a property of God but of physical creation.
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In Post 159 you admitted to knowing that "open theism flatly states that God has no knowledge of what you will do next unless you happen to be fulfilling a specific prophecy He is bringing about."
So you know I said God can fulfil prophecies of distant events , as I will show below: by engaging His omnipotence to limit human actions tothose that will bring His prediction to pass.
Post 337 I said
So why, rather than refuting with reasons ny actual statements, are you misrepresenting my statements, and erecting straw men to mock instead?
Please honestly represent the views of the ,posters you are critiquing. Ifyu can't launch an honest coherent argument against my open
theist propositions, just admit you can't. But please don't put a weaker argument into my mouth to create the impression for casual readers that you addressed and rebutted myactual views.
So you know I said God can fulfil prophecies of distant events , as I will show below: by engaging His omnipotence to limit human actions tothose that will bring His prediction to pass.
Post 337 I said
So why, rather than refuting with reasons ny actual statements, are you misrepresenting my statements, and erecting straw men to mock instead?
Please honestly represent the views of the ,posters you are critiquing. Ifyu can't launch an honest coherent argument against my open
theist propositions, just admit you can't. But please don't put a weaker argument into my mouth to create the impression for casual readers that you addressed and rebutted myactual views.
I do not agree that there is an eternal i.e. timeless God. That is why I used the subjunctive hypothetical "would" . Scripture says God is without beginning and without end. God was and is and is to come. He is temporal.
If I were describing the genesis/origin of anything, such as the internet, I would say "In the beginning so-and-so theorised that in future households, businesses and other entities would be linked together and communicate with one another through personal computers".. And I would not be implying that "the beginning" was simultaneous with the beginning of time; nor that time was created when the internet was conceived of. Likewise, when scripture says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, the theme of the book will indicate what this beginning is of, namely the origins of mankind and man's relationship with God. It does not imply that time began at this beginning, any more than time began with the concept of the internet. Those who assume timelessness preceded the creation, read their cosmology into the text, but their cosmology is not inherent to the text.
.Logically, if God is eternal and knows all the future, all evil that ever has or will occur in the cosmos was invented by God in His eternal imagination before any other thing existed. This severely compromises the biblical claim that God is holy. So, I reject the eternal God hypotheses and prefer the from everlasting to everlasting God hypothesis.
If I were describing the genesis/origin of anything, such as the internet, I would say "In the beginning so-and-so theorised that in future households, businesses and other entities would be linked together and communicate with one another through personal computers".. And I would not be implying that "the beginning" was simultaneous with the beginning of time; nor that time was created when the internet was conceived of. Likewise, when scripture says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, the theme of the book will indicate what this beginning is of, namely the origins of mankind and man's relationship with God. It does not imply that time began at this beginning, any more than time began with the concept of the internet. Those who assume timelessness preceded the creation, read their cosmology into the text, but their cosmology is not inherent to the text.
.Logically, if God is eternal and knows all the future, all evil that ever has or will occur in the cosmos was invented by God in His eternal imagination before any other thing existed. This severely compromises the biblical claim that God is holy. So, I reject the eternal God hypotheses and prefer the from everlasting to everlasting God hypothesis.
He is out calling and saving lost sheep who are anxious and harassed, who have no shepherd. Mark 6:34, Matt. 9:36
You need to cite your verses that you believe support your view. Yes He knows those who are already His sheep, and those sheep know Him. But there are other sheep who are not yet in HIs flock that He seeks and finds and rescues.
You need to cite your verses that you believe support your view. Yes He knows those who are already His sheep, and those sheep know Him. But there are other sheep who are not yet in HIs flock that He seeks and finds and rescues.
my apologies for presuming you are already familiar with scripture.
when i get a little time i will give citations for all the things i mentioned about sheep.
can you likewise give scripture showing that He already has sheep that aren't yet His sheep?
earlier you said you don't become His sheep until you decide to be His sheep. but He calls those not belonging to Him goats, not sheep, and divides them from the sheep at the end of the age.
when i get a little time i will give citations for all the things i mentioned about sheep.
can you likewise give scripture showing that He already has sheep that aren't yet His sheep?
earlier you said you don't become His sheep until you decide to be His sheep. but He calls those not belonging to Him goats, not sheep, and divides them from the sheep at the end of the age.
the Bible is not about mankind, but about Christ. and the Bible is not simple.
Christ has no beginning - He is God.
so Genesis 1:1 by saying "beginning" is not speaking of the beginning of Christ - and it is not speaking of the beginning of man, either, who was not created until the 6th Yom.
by saying "beginning" He indicates something that was created and did not pre-exist. and He does not say 'the beginning of the heavens and the earth' but in the beginning, they were created.
so the beginning is before the heavens and the earth.
What then is created before the heavens and the earth?
Christ has no beginning - He is God.
so Genesis 1:1 by saying "beginning" is not speaking of the beginning of Christ - and it is not speaking of the beginning of man, either, who was not created until the 6th Yom.
by saying "beginning" He indicates something that was created and did not pre-exist. and He does not say 'the beginning of the heavens and the earth' but in the beginning, they were created.
so the beginning is before the heavens and the earth.
What then is created before the heavens and the earth?
Our finite minds cannot comprehend the Infinite without the Holy Spirit. A simple question that cannot be answered scientifically is infinity into the past. It doesn't make sense, and it defies logic and rational thought. Let's say the Big Bang was the beginning of the universe and evolution in general. Well, what caused that? And, whatever caused the Big Bang, what caused that, and on and on it goes into infinity past. God is eternal--that's the simple yet profound answer the Bible provides.
We are living in a critical point in history. Forces of evil are hard at work, and we as forces of light need to be vigilent as well. The war in Palestine and the war in Ukraine that has oddly slipped into the background could be precursors of larger conflicts to come with the "free world" at war with tyranny. I am stunned at the acceleration rate, and we are even more baffled as a species trying to solve these complex conflicts and maintain stability. I'm not jumping on the Armageddon bandwagon yet, but we are certainly facing World War III right now (already in the works economically, technologically, and the various proxy fights happening around the globe).
Thanks be to God that we are His ambassadors, children, and warriors. He will fight the battles for us, and I am thrilled to be one of His soldiers to overthrow the forces of darkness led by the prince of darkness, Satan. Victory belongs to our God, Jesus our Lord and Savior!
We are living in a critical point in history. Forces of evil are hard at work, and we as forces of light need to be vigilent as well. The war in Palestine and the war in Ukraine that has oddly slipped into the background could be precursors of larger conflicts to come with the "free world" at war with tyranny. I am stunned at the acceleration rate, and we are even more baffled as a species trying to solve these complex conflicts and maintain stability. I'm not jumping on the Armageddon bandwagon yet, but we are certainly facing World War III right now (already in the works economically, technologically, and the various proxy fights happening around the globe).
Thanks be to God that we are His ambassadors, children, and warriors. He will fight the battles for us, and I am thrilled to be one of His soldiers to overthrow the forces of darkness led by the prince of darkness, Satan. Victory belongs to our God, Jesus our Lord and Savior!
that open theism confesses a path for God to bring about what He has told His prophets will come to pass does not in any way diminish the fact that open theism considers God to be ignorant writ large of the future.
i, as a mere mortal being, can determine that i will go to the grocery store on Sunday. i can then do everything in my power to bring about the eventuality of my purpose. but i still can't accurately predict anyone's actions that may interfere with my plans more than 10 seconds in advance.
oopen theism puts God in the same category as me: able to act within His power in order to try to bring about His purpose, but ultimately completely ignorant of the future, even if, granted, He's pretty good at profiling.
i, as a mere mortal being, can determine that i will go to the grocery store on Sunday. i can then do everything in my power to bring about the eventuality of my purpose. but i still can't accurately predict anyone's actions that may interfere with my plans more than 10 seconds in advance.
oopen theism puts God in the same category as me: able to act within His power in order to try to bring about His purpose, but ultimately completely ignorant of the future, even if, granted, He's pretty good at profiling.
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That is simply a false accusation against and a false representation of open theism.You need to listen better. In open theism God can predict things 4000 years ahead, making them happen by applying His omnipotence, omnipresence and exhaustive infinite/uncountable knowledge of the beginningless past and the present. So it is absolutely false to claim, as you do here that:
1. open theism puts God in the same category as me
2. That an omnipotent God has to try to bring about His [prophesied] purpose
3. That God is completely ignorant of the future (when future means "events that will eventally become real". He knows those events that he promises unconditionally will happen.
I would argue that the open theist's understanding of God fits the scripture, observable reality and logic much better than the set of dogmatic assertions about God, held together by appeals to mystery, and formulated by men centuries after the NT was written by applying Plato's metaphysics to the Hebrew scriptures. Let's have a reasoned discussion which honestly repesents the claims of the other sides and does not resort to logically valid rhetorical devices.
1. open theism puts God in the same category as me
2. That an omnipotent God has to try to bring about His [prophesied] purpose
3. That God is completely ignorant of the future (when future means "events that will eventally become real". He knows those events that he promises unconditionally will happen.
I would argue that the open theist's understanding of God fits the scripture, observable reality and logic much better than the set of dogmatic assertions about God, held together by appeals to mystery, and formulated by men centuries after the NT was written by applying Plato's metaphysics to the Hebrew scriptures. Let's have a reasoned discussion which honestly repesents the claims of the other sides and does not resort to logically valid rhetorical devices.
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