You are correct, I believe. Any explanation for the state of things before the beginning of the present creation is theoretical and will have flaws when viewed from a position after the beginning. We should avoid dogmatism on theoreticals and honestly represent andbe willing to acknowledge the problems with our particular theories IF SO-AND-SO's PRESUPPOSITIONS WERE CORRECT. But we do not have to agree with any particular philosopher's or theologian's presuppositions.
Does God Know From All Eternity Who Will Die Having Rejected Sound Doctrine?
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open theism categorically says that only what God causes to happen, He is aware of, in the future.
you have stated more than once God is unaware of everyday, unprophesied events until they happen and He observes them.
own it bro.
open theism's central tenet is that it is impossible for God to know what a free will being will think, say or do.
you have stated more than once God is unaware of everyday, unprophesied events until they happen and He observes them.
own it bro.
open theism's central tenet is that it is impossible for God to know what a free will being will think, say or do.
The WHOLE Bible, every page, is about Christ. it is not given to us to learn about mankind, but about Him.
It isn't just commanded "search the scriptures because they testify of Me" but written that the Spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Christ. nothing recorded in the law or the prophets is recorded for us to gain information about mankind - but for us to be taught of Christ.
i am not saying this in order to sound spiritual, but because it's the truth, and when you say the theme of any book of the Bible is 'mankind' it is a lie.
No one who does not understand that all scripture is testimony of Christ understands the scripture, IMO.
It isn't just commanded "search the scriptures because they testify of Me" but written that the Spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Christ. nothing recorded in the law or the prophets is recorded for us to gain information about mankind - but for us to be taught of Christ.
i am not saying this in order to sound spiritual, but because it's the truth, and when you say the theme of any book of the Bible is 'mankind' it is a lie.
No one who does not understand that all scripture is testimony of Christ understands the scripture, IMO.
And you equally know that has nothing to do with open theism's central dogma: that God is ignorant of the free will choices of humans.
i do not have the leisure time you apoear to have, to write 25 paragraphs a day in this thread. i have to concentrate on the points i perceive to be at the heart of the discussion, instead of wasting words on diversion.
i do not have the leisure time you apoear to have, to write 25 paragraphs a day in this thread. i have to concentrate on the points i perceive to be at the heart of the discussion, instead of wasting words on diversion.
@PaulThomson
i regret that, i do. in the not so distant past i could waste many words in threads like this. sorry.
i will list for you tomorrow all the verses in John you asked for, that you weirdly are ignorant of. and try to get to whatever else seems worthwhile of responding to.
but being selective of what i address is not dishonest; it's economic. i would appreciate if you refrain from further slander of my character and stick to theology.
i regret that, i do. in the not so distant past i could waste many words in threads like this. sorry.
i will list for you tomorrow all the verses in John you asked for, that you weirdly are ignorant of. and try to get to whatever else seems worthwhile of responding to.
but being selective of what i address is not dishonest; it's economic. i would appreciate if you refrain from further slander of my character and stick to theology.
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It is not open theism's central dogma: that God is ignorant of the free will choices of humans. That may be a belief of some open theists, but not of all. I am an open theist and do not believe God is ignorant of the free will choices of humans. But maybe you meant something else and worded your statement inaccurately. God knows all past and present free will choices of all beings.
I see scripture from an perspective open theistic theology. So, what I am saying I believe ,is one version of open theism.
God knows the unconditional prophesied actions of humans. God does not make future events happen by taking away free will choices, i.e. the ability to choose what to want/will/ greek thelein. He can direct human actions by limiting the range of practicable actions a human thinks he has, not by commandeering the will/desires themselves and putting a foreign desire in the human's heart to make them want to do what He wills. People can be corralled into doing God's predicted action reluctantly, resentfully, unwillingly. e.g. We can give reluctantly but God loves a cheerful giver., 2 Cor. 9:7; and Herod crucified Jesus reluctantly, against his will/desire, because of his fear of a riot. Mt. 27:15-26, Mr 15:9-15, Luke 23:1--5,14-25, John 18:28-40, 19:1-16.
I see scripture from an perspective open theistic theology. So, what I am saying I believe ,is one version of open theism.
God knows the unconditional prophesied actions of humans. God does not make future events happen by taking away free will choices, i.e. the ability to choose what to want/will/ greek thelein. He can direct human actions by limiting the range of practicable actions a human thinks he has, not by commandeering the will/desires themselves and putting a foreign desire in the human's heart to make them want to do what He wills. People can be corralled into doing God's predicted action reluctantly, resentfully, unwillingly. e.g. We can give reluctantly but God loves a cheerful giver., 2 Cor. 9:7; and Herod crucified Jesus reluctantly, against his will/desire, because of his fear of a riot. Mt. 27:15-26, Mr 15:9-15, Luke 23:1--5,14-25, John 18:28-40, 19:1-16.
James says that the word is a mirror that shows us our true nature. When I look in a mirror I see a regenerate man. Paul's letters contain screeds of instructions for how to be truly human in Christ. But you seem to be saying no verses are about the theme of man and God's dealings with man, but that they are all only about Christ.
Claiming someone is contradicting themself is without force unless you show the contradiction. You could be imagining something that is not really there.
I have gone into this in other posts. Eternal has historically meant what its latin components mean., i.e. outside of time or without temporality, so cannot experience anything sequentially with a sense of "this was before that and that will be after this". There is nothing in the original God-breathed Hebrew, Chaldee and Greek scriptures that describes God as eternal. Where the word eternal appears in English translations the original languages use words that have temporal not a time-less sense. I believe God is "from everlasting to everlasting", "without beginning and without end", and is he "who was and is and is to come" as the Hebrew scriptures say. I do not think God is the uncaused cause as postulated by Greek philosophers. "The Greeks through their wisdom did not arrive at wisdom".
I have gone into this in other posts. Eternal has historically meant what its latin components mean., i.e. outside of time or without temporality, so cannot experience anything sequentially with a sense of "this was before that and that will be after this". There is nothing in the original God-breathed Hebrew, Chaldee and Greek scriptures that describes God as eternal. Where the word eternal appears in English translations the original languages use words that have temporal not a time-less sense. I believe God is "from everlasting to everlasting", "without beginning and without end", and is he "who was and is and is to come" as the Hebrew scriptures say. I do not think God is the uncaused cause as postulated by Greek philosophers. "The Greeks through their wisdom did not arrive at wisdom".
You say, "Let's say the Big Bang was the beginning of the universe and evolution in general. Well, what caused that? And, whatever caused the Big Bang, what caused that, and on and on it goes into infinity past. "
I would answer, God, who is from everlasting to everlasting caused that.
You say, "God is eternal--that's the simple yet profound answer the Bible provides".
I would answer that "how God can be personal, living, loving, relational and good without his nature being temporal?" is at least as mysterious and problematic a question as " How can God be temporal and be without a beginning?" And postulating eternality to God does not really explain "From everlasting to everlasting I am God."
You are still stuck with having to explain time existing in the past and having no beginning. The allegedly "eternal" God has been timelessly existing imminently within beginningless everlasting time. He must either have created beginningless time with a beginningless everlasting past which was outside himself, or this beginningless time was as much His nature as holiness and omnipotence.
"What is the exact meaning of temporal?
a. : of or relating to time as distinguished from space. b. : of or relating to the sequence of time or to a particular time : chronological. temporally adverb."
I would answer, God, who is from everlasting to everlasting caused that.
You say, "God is eternal--that's the simple yet profound answer the Bible provides".
I would answer that "how God can be personal, living, loving, relational and good without his nature being temporal?" is at least as mysterious and problematic a question as " How can God be temporal and be without a beginning?" And postulating eternality to God does not really explain "From everlasting to everlasting I am God."
You are still stuck with having to explain time existing in the past and having no beginning. The allegedly "eternal" God has been timelessly existing imminently within beginningless everlasting time. He must either have created beginningless time with a beginningless everlasting past which was outside himself, or this beginningless time was as much His nature as holiness and omnipotence.
"What is the exact meaning of temporal?
a. : of or relating to time as distinguished from space. b. : of or relating to the sequence of time or to a particular time : chronological. temporally adverb."
