This question is for Pretribulational advocates but anybody can chime in.

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Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#41
1. Thanks!
2. A very good question indeed. I could use some lame excuse that my fingers just don't always obey me, but the reality is I probably wasn't looking at the first word when I typed it (as though I needed to). Will that fly? Also could be I didn't use the Preview.
To be honest, and probably because I have 8 children, the excuse seems a little lame. But because your avatar choice is so good, I'll let you slide if you promise to up your excuse game in the future.
 

Romans34

... let God be true ...
Oct 28, 2023
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#42
To be honest, and probably because I have 8 children, the excuse seems a little lame. But because your avatar choice is so good, I'll let you slide if you promise to up your excuse game in the future.
It's obvious I'm not very good at it, but I'll try.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,052
6,547
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#43
It's obvious I'm not very good at it, but I'll try.
That's the spirit. My kids weren't very good at first either. But I told them if they were going to make something up to at least make it entertaining. So I have high hopes for you.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#44
"Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age/world."
The Rapture is neither the end of the world nor the Second Coming.

So here is my question? What verse or verses can you provide proving that the so-called rapture of the Church will happen before the antichrist is revealed, standing in the temple/holy place claiming to be God?
The Bible clearly shows the Church is in Heaven before the Second Coming...
Revelation 19:
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen
, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Furthermore, the Rapture is presented to us before the wrath of God is poured out (of which the coming of antichrist is but a small part.)...

Revelation 4:1
“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.”

This corresponds with...

1 Thessalonians 4:16,17
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:”
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#45
That's the spirit. My kids weren't very good at first either. But I told them if they were going to make something up to at least make it entertaining. So I have high hopes for you.
Cam-Man has been a great source of encouragement and hope for little oyster as well! :geek::giggle:
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#46
My point of this thread is to get people with an opposing view to think critically and to know for a fact to know what you believe and "WhY" you believe it.
Anyone who opposes "your view" (whatever that is) must certainly be zombified dummy.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#49
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:1-3)

Do you see anything here about the Antichrist or the Holy Place? This is the primary revelation of the Rapture and the very words of Christ. Enough said.
Amen, brother! :)(y)

1 Thessalonians 5:9
“For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,”

We have not been appointed unto the Time of Jacob's Troubles. We are the Church Bride, and we are heading for a wedding! :D
 

Karlon

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2023
2,552
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#50
What's clear? Obviously your telling me these verses prove that the rapture will occur before the antichrist is revealed who will also be standing in the holy place telling everyone that he is God. To that I say, "Horse Hockey." And here are the reasons why? I will use the very verses you quoted me.

Look at Romans 5:8-9, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Vs9, Much more then having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved/delivered from the wrath of God through Him." Now please think! These verses are talking about salvation proper as in getting saved so you "WILL NOT" face the wrath of God.

Now, do you want to know what's even more interesting? You quoting 1 Thessalonians 5:9. Please pay attention to the context. Oh yea, and before I forget this verse is the "go to" verse pretribulationist always go to prove the rapture because God does not destine us to wrath.

Vs1, "Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. Vs2, For (or because) you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. Vs3, While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (Escape what?)

Vs4, But you, brethren are not in darkness that the day should overtake you like a thief; (why?) vs5, for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; Vs6, so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. Vs7, For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. Vs8, But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

(Now for the kicker). For (0r because) God has not destined us for wrath, but for OBTAINING SALVATION through our Lord Jesus Christ. , vs10, who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him." Now I purposefully quoted all these verses to show you the force of what they are teaching.

We are not children of the night because we are saved through Him and according to John 1:4, "In Him was life, AND HE IS THE LIGHT OF MEN." We are not children of wrath because were saved, that is the context. The wrath for them is rejecting Jesus Christ. Please compare 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10. Also 1 Thessalonians 2:16, "hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. Btu WRATH has come upon them to the utmost." One more, Ephesians 2:3. Does all of this make sense?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
"not appointed us to wrath" means believers will be spared the pain & tribulation occurring at he beginning of the day of the Lord. the day of the Lord is the period that begins with the great tribulation & includes the 2nd coming of Christ. for those who do not believe the rapture is 1st, what's the sense in getting saved?
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#53
Nice, but now you are risking having the antiHalloween zealots egging your house.
Egged if you do, egged if you don't. I'm going to turn out the lights and crawl under my bed until all of this madness passes.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,105
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#54
Anyone who opposes "your view" (whatever that is) must certainly be zombified dummy.
Now that was not very nice, calling me names. And I'm a post-tribulationest, that's my view which was made clear in all my post in this thread. Don't you read!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#55
Now that was not very nice, calling me names. And I'm a post-tribulationest, that's my view which was made clear in all my post in this thread. Don't you read!
:eek: Here comes 'dem eggs... heads up evybuddy! :rolleyes:
 

seekingthemindofChrist

Casting down imaginations
Jul 10, 2023
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#56
I already did. There was no mention of the Antichrist in that passage, since it is always IMMINENT. Why are you not satisfied with the explicit words of Christ?
What nonsense.

Here is a question for you:

Was Peter among those to whom Jesus was speaking in John chapter 14?

Yes, as a matter of fact, he was.

Jesus later said this to Peter:

John 21:18-19

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me."

Jesus explained to Peter how he would die when he was old.

I guess that your Bible has some sort of disclaimer in it like "But wait...you might get raptured first because it is always imminent!"

You have proven nothing but your own ignorance.

Of course, Peter did not believe in an imminent rapture either.

For this cause, he wrote:

2 Peter 1:12-15

"Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance."

Peter knew that he was going to die prior to being raptured, so there goes your "imminency" heresy right down the toilet...which is exactly where it belongs.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#57
Since you wanted them to be explicitly mentioned, and they were not, should that not be enough? Why do we continue to question the words of Christ in John 14?
Amen! John 14 shows Jesus preparing a place for the wedding in Heaven for His Bride, the Church. We are heading for a wedding. :)(y)
 

seekingthemindofChrist

Casting down imaginations
Jul 10, 2023
1,178
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#59
Amen! John 14 shows Jesus preparing a place for the wedding in Heaven for His Bride, the Church. We are heading for a wedding. :)(y)
If the wedding is in heaven, then how did this man (vss. 11-12) get there without a wedding garment?

Mat 22:1
And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
Mat 22:2
The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
Mat 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Mat 22:4
Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
Mat 22:5
But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
Mat 22:6
And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
Mat 22:7
But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Mat 22:8
Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Mat 22:9
Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat 22:10
So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
Mat 22:11
And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
Mat 22:12
And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,105
532
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#60
Amen! John 14 shows Jesus preparing a place for the wedding in Heaven for His Bride, the Church. We are heading for a wedding. :)(y)
So let me get this straight. Your going to be up in heaven feasting on Lamb chops with Jesus while all hell is breaking loose here on earth going through the great tribulation. Well I guess that makes sense only to the Biblically ignorant.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto