Israel Declares War

That's a surprise, the real issue in this war is the response by Israel and not the initial massacre.

Well, if you feel that way go to Gaza and help out.

Israel has a right to a homeland and to defend that land. It is theirs historically and Biblically. There's nothing more to add. They gave people time to get out, which is more than they were given. They have acted morally. They are the only democracy in the ME. They are more than entitled to the 1% of land they own. Opinions here don't matter, facts do.

I'm not sure what your interpretation of Romans 11 really is... but the way that I read it, Paul was talking about the return of the remnant to be in his time... not some future thing.

Rom. 11:1-5 (ESV)
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

Exactly, why write a letter to the Roman Christians about something 2000 years in the future, makes no sense.

No, sorry, this is future tense. It ends saying...

All Israel Will Be Saved
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, ( are Gentiles still being saved?!) 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

We'd agree Israel is not spiritually where it needs to be, yet.

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable

Irrevocable -not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final.

Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Future to the time written, so still relevant to the audience who would experience it and to whom it was written, but not 2000+ years in the future.

Ok I'm back. We disagree a bit on who the recipients of the promise are. Not everyone who claims to be Israel is Israel. Israel's obedience to the Almighty was always a condition for remaining in the land, and whenever Israel's disobedience reached an obnoxious level the Almighty removed them from the land.

...but here's the interesting part...the land was never left uninhabited during Israel's punishment. The Almighty doesn't change.

Whenever Israel was removed, there was always another group that was ready to claim their land and possessions for themselves because they believed the promises made to Israel were originally theirs but stolen from them. This group was the children of Esau.

Esau and Jacob were twins, and under the right conditions, it was very difficult to tell them apart. They even had the same number of sons (12). They were nearly identical.

Isaac blessed both sons with almost the same exact blessing, only he said Esau would receive the best of the earth through the sword (bloodshed). So without fail, Edomites were always around during Israel's calamity and were always available to claim the land, possessions, and name of Israel whenever Israel was punished. This behavior even continued into the gospels, which is why we have Herod as king of the Jews even though the gospels clearly say he was an Idumean (i.e., Edomite). So Herod was an Edomite claiming to be a Jew who ruled over the Jews.

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I submit to you that the zionists that are currently in charge in the land, who can't seem to escape the sword to find peace, are Edomites masquerading as Jews, no different than when Jacob masqueraded as Esau to steal the birthright. And as Edomites, they were never subject to the same conditions of obedience to live in the land; having never cut a covenant with The Almighty. So they need not obey the commandments or believe in the Messiah to remain there.

Meanwhile, the majority of the children of Israel are still scattered to the nations waiting for the return of the Messiah because scripture says He's the one who leads them back home after they remember to be obedient to Him in the land of their exile.

Let the Almighty be true and every man a liar.

you do what you can to defend yourself.

If Israel wanted to. they could wipe the west bank off the map..

I wish people would stop saying they are doing this, they are not

What about the temple that stood for 46 years before it was finally surrounded by the Roman army as it was desolated in 70 ad? Leading to nearly two millennia of persecution of the Jews. Doesn't that count?

Herod's father was by descent an Edomite with a Jewish mother; his ancestors had converted to Judaism. Herod was raised as a Jew.


The Jews are blinded at the moment. The Bible says there will be repentance. I expect a Jew to act as a Jew because the Gentiles are not yet fully come in. If they are disobedient, that is no surprise, their hearts are hardened by God now.


Meanwhile, the majority of the children of Israel are still scattered to the nations waiting for the return of the Messiah because scripture says He's the one who leads them back home after they remember to be obedient to Him in the land of their exile.

Let the Almighty be true and every man a liar.[/QUOTE]

I believe God is beginning to lead them back now. They are beginning to see they don't have the support they thought they had.

sure it does..

Dan 9:
“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall [j]be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,

It was prophesied it would be destroyed. fillfilled in 70 AD by Rome

Dan 9:
Then he shall confirm a [k]covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the [l]desolate.”

here is the abomination of desolation which Jesus spoke of which will be the beginning of the great tribulation.. this is a rebuilt temple.. Not the one destroyed in 70 AD

I understand that many would like this to be a "future tense" kinda' thing, but I don't see it that way.

If we were to look at it that way, we would have to infer that all of the Jewish people were blinded/hardened because no qualifier is present in that verse that suggests different. Yet, Paul, a Jew, was presenting it.

Also, you included a "title", All Israel Will Be Saved, that isn't Scripture... Still, it's a thing that I think inserts a preconceived mindset, one that comes from dispensationalists.

Yeah, this was the first time I ever had it. It's terrible; I wish it on no one. That's why whatever someone suggests I use I rush to the store to get it. I hope you feel better soon too.

Do you believe that Hamas has stopped many civilians from leaving? If so, should the civilians face the same fate as the terrorists for not being allowed to leave?

If you get congested, I would buy NeilMed sinus rinse. When I was sick, it was the only thing to give me relief and breathe normally.

just to confirm, you're saying the first portion prophesies 70 AD destruction while the second potion prophesies the destruction of a future temple?

Interesting question... yes, I believe that Hamas has tried to do that. But I wonder about it because there's like, 10,000 Hamas militants reported to be in Gaza... and like 2.5 million population... and many, many routes out of Gaza, besides the two or so that are considered official.
So the question is, why are the citizens remaining behind?

I am in a quandary over that situation because I do believe that Hamas does that. But I don't see where the people have tried to expel Hamas. In fact it seems the people rejoice over the deaths of Jews, name streets after those who have killed Jews like they are heroes'. If the people were to turn toward Israel and say they want peace and stand with them as they remove Hamas, then I would stand with them also. It's just, I don't see that happening. BUT if it is then I also stand with the people to rid the terrorists of the land. But I don't believe there will be complete peace until Christs return.