Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

I am definitely aware of the inherent limitation of this medium, but we can only do our best. We can always clarify and
restate which I probably need to do more than anyone else, so don't sweat it.
I understood/understand your point about who gets the gift, but my point was/is that only those who have already received it are they who can answer the call (depending upon what you mean by answering the call), but, it comes FROM having become saved, it does not lead TO nor does it bring salvation: there is nothing a person can do to save themself - God just gives it freely, totally without and any preconditions to those whom He had chosen, at the time He had chosen. This is what makes Him an exceedingly gracious and merciful God - that He already accomplished all on our behalf, to include everything relating to it. Those saved may not even immediately realize it has happened to them when it occurs but comes as a progressive realization over time.
In the verses you quoted, the "whosoever" does not represent everyone; the "whosoever" are only those chosen by God. No one can truly believe (although some do for a time but eventually fall away, but that kind of belief originated from their intellect, not from God), nor can come to Him unless first given by God that they do so- until and unless that occurs, we remain dead in sin and blind to Christ unable to come to Him. Observe below that only those drawn and taught by the Father come to Jesus. And those taught cannot, not, come to Jesus. Conversely, those not taught therefore cannot come to Him. They are those whom God had so chosen for such, not everyone is. In your last two sentences above, I believe you have the order reversed - that is only those the Father had chosen are they who come to believe and not the reverse. If it is by us, then it can't be by the Father, and there would therefore be no need to be taught of the Father because we would already know it and already have the faith to do so, so there would be no need to be taught about Jesus. But our faith is not what saves us. Our faith is a gift given by the Holy Spirit as His fruit, upon becoming born-again, upon becoming saved. We become saved only by Christ's faith, faithfulness and works which alone brought forth salvation and which becomes imputed to those whom He saves - it is all by God, nothing by us.

[Jhn 6:43-45 KJV]
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


Observe that only those ordained to eternal life believe.

[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

The "will be saved" of verse 16, is the salvation of the last day. Salvation consists of two parts: positionally/spiritually saved by God at a time of His choosing during our lives, and the final manifestation of salvation on the last day.

[1Co 5:5 KJV] 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

From God's perspective all of the unsaved are foolish which is who the virgins represent.
The Bible is replete with edification from God so that His chosen learn about Christ and His salvation, which He desires that they do. They, even though saved, do not wake up one morning automatically knowing all spiritual doctrine, they must be taught and learn it
over time, which occurs throughout their lifetime.

[Eph 4:11-13 KJV]
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

We just might be.

that is when they tried to light them. if they had to trim them, they couldn't have had them lit.
Notice the "took no oil". took no oil means they took no oil, at all, not that they took some oil.

[Mat 25:3-4 KJV]
3 They that [were] foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

Just so I'm clear on your perspective, would you post the eisegesis you conducted on trimming a wick - thanks?

everyone is arguing about who had oil and who did not, but, the "entire point" being made was lost.

WHO, was RESPONSIBLE, for having OIL in their Lamps?

WE ARE!

that alone removes OSAS dogma.

if you are the ONE responsible for having OIL, then you are Responsible for Remaining SAVED, by ALWAYS ABIDING in God.

OSAS, is so easy to disprove. that's the third example I've now shown how OSAS is PURE ADULTERATED BALONEY!!

I agree with you to some extent and maybe we just describe it differently. What I don't agree with is that God chooses some and not others and we have no choice. It's my understanding God offers us salvation and it's up to us to accept or reject. That's how I've understood it my entire Christian life, so this is new to me. I've never debated this before because I have never run across it before. Give me some time to chew on this and I'll get back with you. Thanks for doing a good job of explaining your point of view.

God's gift is a gift of salvation. Read and study the scriptures in Jewish perspective - back to the Jewish roots.


Take a moment to watch.

I'm thinking about this and trying to understand your viewpoint better. How do you understand Adam and Eve and the tree of knowledge?

No problem. In what way? Sorry, could you be a little more specific?

Hello Magenta, that's an interesting observation. Another is that the church is referred to as the bride, for example, Revelation 19:6-8. In the parable of the wise and foolish women according to Jewish custom the bride and the bridegroom would be coming back together, the ten women would be lighting the way for the bride and the bridegroom as they return. I don't believe in the bible the church is referred to as ten women, why would it be? It's already referred to as the bride. Some point to the a significance of the ten from the OT, 1 Kings 12. The ten tribes of Israel. God Bless

The way I understand being saved or staying saved is based on the choices we make. God has given us everything we need, done everything for us but it's up to us who do we choose to serve. God or ourselves.
21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

So I thought about Adam and Eve. They are basically saved (without sin) and God has provided them everything they need but has given them only one law. I'm just curious if you see it as God didn't give them whatever or it was their choice or fill in the blank.

God simply saved them without any actions for it from them, as according to my belief He does for everyone He saves - and its His prerogative to do so.
Only if one becomes saved first, can they truly serve Him because until then the true gospel is a hidden spiritual mystery and so they cannot correctly comprehend nor proclaim it.
Verse 23 that you posted above is Paul making known there were those among them who appeared saved Christians but were not. They had a man-produced intellectual faith, not a true God given faith, and therefore, would eventually fall away. On the other hand, those given faith by God would never fall away because faith resides within them by God, and since by God, it can never leave them. They will continue in it because God, not man, is the guarantor that they do. This will remain true until the end of time. In Pet 1:4 - 5. We can see that God makes Himself that guarantor and so faith will never leave them.
Not sure if I answered your question or not. If not, let me know and I'll try again.

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Yep, were speaking two different languages The verse I posted has the conditional if and the condition is up to us. Just like Adam and Eve in the garden. They lived in paradise as long as they didn't eat of the forbidden fruit. Same with us, we are saved IF we continue in the faith.
I respectfully suggest you read into passages so they fit YOUR thinking. Paul doesn't question their faith. All faith is from God when we read and believe His word. Faith can be weak or strong because of us not God. As you said we must be taught and learn spiritual wisdom. That learning is up to us. Consider what the Hebrew writer tells us, 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil. We see maturity comes from training. In verse 12 he says by this time they ought to be teachers. He doesn't blame God for them not being teachers. He blames them because they have become dull of hearing v.11.

Adam and Eve were perfect before the fall and had truly free will - unhindered by sin - they were not made blind by sin as everyone after the fall (to include themselves) are/were. Therefore, using them in their pre-fall state as a template or standard for people after the fall, is inappropriate.
As mentioned in my prior reply, the "if" are those who's belief is a construct of themselves, not one given by God. Man-produced belief can only lead to a trust in themselves and in their works for salvation, not in Christ as Saviour: one is of the human unsaved mind, the other is of the spiritual heart. How can someone of themselves gain true belief if they are spiritually blind, deaf and dead? The unsaved are those who are dull of hearing and so they cannot give to themselves hearing, just as a physically deaf person cannot give to themself physical hearing - only God can give spiritual hearing. Only those saved by God, those whom He has makes alive spiritually, with it are given spiritual hearing and true faith/belief, the others don't hear or believe because they can't - it is not within human capability or power to do so.
Salvation alone is the prerequisite for spiritual learning and wisdom, and therefore, it must come first. IOW, all attributes associated to a true Christian come only FROM salvation, they cannot bring salvation to anyone. These verses demonstrate that:


[2Co 4:3-4 KJV] 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[Luk 1:77 KJV]
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

[Jhn 8:43 KJV]
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.

[Eph 2:1 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

That's a false assumption. Making excuses for sin isn't going to fly when standing before the Lord.

Romans 1:19-21
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

I disagree with the if being a construct of themselves. Paul is writing to Christians and he tells them they have been reconciled in His body if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel . We face the same decision everyday Adam and Eve faced. Do we choose to do God's will or our will.
The verses you posted are still determined by the hearer. Take Col. 2, the prior verse says 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. Choosing to be baptized, and therefore added to Christ, is a decision we make after hearing the gospel and believing. That is what Peter means when he says 'save yourselves". They've been presented with the gospel, the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, so it's now up to them to believe.

What do you make of Galatians. Paul is rebuking them because they are turning from Christ and perverting the gospel.
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—

I just have one question for you who believe salvation can be lost.
How many times have you been saved?

I have met many who believe salvation can be lost but never met anyone who has lost theirs.
Nor do they know anyone who has lost their salvation.
Seems strange to me.

Didn't you read the verse I posted that says those saved are kept by the power of God, and not by man? Therefore, anyone who has been saved simply cannot be of those whom Paul is referring to (above), unless, that is, you believe that man's actions and power can override God's. And if you do, that means you don't believe Jesus is the Saviour, but that man is his own saviour. Paul is not saying if they continue, they WILL BE reconciled, but saying THEY HAVE been reconciled in order that they continue in the faith to the end. Continuing in the faith is a result OF having been reconciled; that is, it is reconciliation's effect. So, what do you make of these verses. Do you see "by the power of God" part"?

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV] 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

None of the verses I posted are determined by the hearer, so either you didn't read or didn't understand them.

To tell you the truth, Turbosxx, I don't understand how you could choose Co 2:12 to substantiate your position.
Did you read 2:13? Here, I'll post both and highlight the significant portions. The "faith of the operation of God" is in the
genitive case, meaning that it is not the person's faith IN the operation of God, but rather the faith that is OF/WITHIN the operation of God, or said another way, Christ's faith. That is; Christ's faith caused them to be raised - it was/is not by their/our faith. This is substantiated by the next verse that HE quickened together with Him (made alive) when they had been dead. It is apparent that the dead cannot give to themselves, faith.

[Col 2:12-13 KJV]
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

What I make of Gal 1:6 is that they as new Christians, and due to that newness, were being confused about doctrine by those who were not saved but who were perverting the gospel of Christ. Paul was correcting /edifying them of the correct doctrine. Since they were not (nor is anyone) saved by what they might do, but instead by Christ's did, because of Christ, their salvation was never in jeopardy.

Turbosxx, you seem to have a problem realizing what a Saviour is and of what He achieved. Instead of trusting in Him, you place your trust in man.

it is always " them", never " me"....

I got born again as a teenager... miraculously and immediately set free from drug use, drinking booze, cussing, smoking cigarettes, lusting after the ladies, etc, etc.... had joy unspeakable and had peace for the first time in my entire life (I can out of a bad childhood with abusive parents)

Then a few months later the 'ol devil came a calling and I started falling in to temptation and one thing leads to another and I'm backslid away from the Lord for a few years living in sin, became a serious drug addict and even became homeless.

Just like the prodigal son Jesus spoke about... after having been made alive, I became dead... and once I came back to the Lord I was made alive again.

This was back in the 90s and once I returned to the Lord I had to learn spiritual warfare! The devil gets hurt now when trying to come at me because over the years I've learned how to be skillful in the word of righteousness (Hebrews 5:13) doing what Jesus did when the devil came to tempt Him trying to get the Lord to sin.

Had I died in that condition, I would have gone to hell even though the Lord still loved me! I had turned away from Him... it was my fault for putting off the new man and putting the old man back on.

But, while living in sin I did not do what most Christians do... which is continue going to church. There's people attending churches who are living in sin and are hiding it... and increasingly now more and more folks are not hiding it (like the so called gay christians and those that support them)

They think they are still in right standing with the Lord because of all the false, heretical OSAS teaching going on in all these apostate churches.

The devil and his demons are laughing at these people. Very sad.