Andy Stanley's Apostasy

You don't believe they acted out of their fallen and unredeemed estate? While they may have convinced themselves they were unalterably redeemed, isn't that a symptom of a depraved and uncircumcised heart?

they clearly allotted themselves the Liberty to do as they pleased while pretending to be a man of God, standing in the Sacred Pulpit, preaching LIES they clearly do not apply to their own lives. but then again, if the lines are blurred and you think all future SINS, before I commit them, are Forgiven [they will be when you Confess them in Repentance] without seeking Forgiveness, then i guess all of the Members of those Churches, should feel lucky, that those Pastors were not in a Committing Murder kind of frame of mind...

but, they DID commit Murder.
how many were abused have LEFT the Church and God over this?
those Pastors Murdered God's People!

i am certain, there's a "Special Place" in Hell, reserved, just for Pastors like this!

I'm not sure you received my point. I believe OSAS, but I don't believe the people you mention are saved. The word of God clearly teaches that people like that will not get into heaven. Their actions are not those that are mentioned among the redeemed of the Lord. Why do you assume they are saved to begin with?

Hello! Once saved always saved. The once comes before the always. God Bless You

i've been around Southern Baptist for many years.
that Organization, is typically very sharp and keen and only places real People Serving God, in places, like being a Pastor.
i believe they were Saved, and along the way, started believing these side benefits to a Baptist Doctrine such as [license to sin (for this example)].
i think they felt justified, like they were being true examples of God, but, perverted their Doctrine.
as result, God, made their SINS known.

Ok. I understand your position. But if they are so keen, how were they fooled 2,000 times?

this was a collection of Data for over 20 years, in the making.


my Grandfather, was a Presbyter, for a Pentecostal Organization. His duties were to oversee a 5 State area. so, for 5 States, his job was to ensure the Preachers were true Men of God. there's 50 States. my Grandfather only oversaw 5. that leaves, possibly, another 9 people involved doing similar jobs but in other States.

but, if we take my Grandfather, and the Other 9 people, who were Presbyters. and we evaluated all 10 equally. not all 10, will see even the Bible the same way, let alone, how they went along the Process of choosing Men of God for Pastors.

i would believe then, the Southern Baptist Church Organization, being State Wide, would be doing similar things.

I do understand your position. I simply see it differently.

there is an absolute Rule that can never be defined any other way:

in order, to be a Prodigal, you must BELONG first, to ever be considered LOST and RETURNED.

those Pastors are Prodigal.
they were Saved.
ended up in a Pig Pen.
and, they have the Right to Return back to where they Belong and be Restored [Salvation Wise].

For the believer it is one.

I see that differently as well. He left a physical son. He came home a spiritual son. The journey produced the readiness to submit to the sonship.

leaves one wondering how far out a church has to be to allow that sort of thing.

Sometimes there can be a tendency in churches today to appoint an outwardly popular or seemingly successful candidate to a leadership post and be less concerned with character or doctrine. Truth comes second to playing the crowd and tickling ears. I think this scripture speaks of leaders:

Matthew 7: 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Jesus said he never knew them. He doesn't say that they lost salvation or walked away, he says that he never knew them.

1 Timothy 3 gives requirements for appointing leaders that are often not followed today, if they had been followed then perhaps those 2,000 tragedies would have been avoided. God Bless You

but he was already in the Family before he Chose to leave and then later Chose to Return.

where's the Predestination in that?

I'm not talking about predestination. The Jewish people were physically God's people. But not all of Israel are of Israel. Spiritual sons were always those who found grace in the eyes of the Lord. They believed God.
Pharisees were physical children. But not spiritual children. Both Ishmael and Isaac were sons of Abraham. Only in Isaac was the promise.

"These people honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me." -Isaiah 29:13; Matt 15:8
"You have no part or share in our ministry, because your heart is not right before God." Acts 8:21
"I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." -Rev 3:5
"Therefore, anyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven." -Matt 10:32

There's the testimony of men, and there's the testimony of God.

confess; homologeo; to speak the same; to agree ; from homologos (of one mind)

i highlighted the key to all you said: They believed God

it was on them to Believe. and they did.

Prodigal CHOSE to Return Home.

if we can CHOOSE to live for God, how is it possible to think we cannot therefore CHOOSE to leave God?

Eternal Security, only works, if we REMAIN/CHOOSE to Obey God.

you sound like my mother

Ever notice that when Adam and Eve sinned it was God who sought them out. When God was going to flood the earth, it was God who sought Noah out. When God was wanting to start a nation, it was God who sought out Abraham. And when God wanted you to know Him, He sought you out too.

The letter to the church of Sardis reveals that there's always an opportunity for repentance as long as there is even a little of "what remains." Rev 3:2

The prodigal came to realization that his father was good, and actually found that his father was great while the other son that 'never left' but all along thought (wrongly) that his own greatness would've resulted in the same reward, and much sooner. He was peeved that his father didn't recognize his 'faithfulness' sooner but found that it, his father's goodness rather than his own, was there all along if he'd have 'known' his father (would have given him all he asked just as he did the prodigal). So, both sons were only thinking of themselves in their own ways. And it seems to me that they were both prodigal, although the one was more apparent than the other.