Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,660
568
113
I disagree with every point you made. You believe that because you believe you stay saved by YOUR power, I disagree completely. Jesus gets ALL glory for my salvation and I get NONE. This is where we are at an impasse, you believe it's up to YOU to keep salvation, I trust in Jesus power to keep mine, that's the difference. You deny Gods power in order to booster your own ego honestly. I'm sure it doesn't feel like that to you, it didn't to me when I thought this way, but when you break it down in all honesty, that's your position here, and why I cannot agree anymore.

BTW when you "add" but that doesn't mean I can't choose to fall away", that's exactly what it is, adding to scripture. His word doesn't add that qualifier.
You may disagree with this, but I think your understanding revealed above can only come with/from/by salvation itself. Until and unless saved it is impossible to have it, as it is secret wisdom not opened to unsaved, natural man; imparted only through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Instead, the unsaved insist that in some form or another, they must do something to become and remain saved, even while stating they believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour - which actually is the disbelief, refutation, and invalidation of Christ as Saviour. It is impossible to reason them into spiritual wisdom and faith, even using scripture. IOW: no one can know the gift until they have been given the gift, because it is part of the gift. Hence the following verses:

[1Co 2:7 KJV] 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

[1Co 2:12-14 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,305
556
113
To teach against the eternal security of the believer, its an attack on Christ being the Author of Eternal Salvation, which He gives to them He died for Heb 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Its taking away from His Perfect Work ! And their obeying Him isnt the cause of His Perfect work, but the fruit of it.
 
Sep 28, 2023
948
177
43
To teach against the eternal security of the believer, its an attack on Christ being the Author of Eternal Salvation, which He gives to them He died for Heb 5:9
Security is ONLY applicable to them that abide IN Christ baring fruit.

Jesus said in John 15 that those who do not abide in Him baring fruit are cut off and thrown in to the fire.... so Jesus is not attacking Himself, is He?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,305
556
113
Security is ONLY applicable to them that abide IN Christ baring fruit.

Jesus said in John 15 that those who do not abide in Him baring fruit are cut off and thrown in to the fire.... so Jesus is not attacking Himself, is He?
Security is in Christs death !
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,234
1,128
113
New Zealand
Security is ONLY applicable to them that abide IN Christ baring fruit.

Jesus said in John 15 that those who do not abide in Him baring fruit are cut off and thrown in to the fire.... so Jesus is not attacking Himself, is He?
Gotta look at the rest of the context around this, plus other verses about receiving eternal life.

Being 'cut off ' does not necessarily mean 'eternal life taken away'

Who is talking to whom?

What is the subject?

What is the occasion?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,305
556
113
Yeah..it's Jesus keeping us..
Not us holding to Him that keeps us saved. Us holding to Him is a yo yo journey. Him holding to us is a rock that cannot be moved.
See those whom Christ died for, by His doing that, they were perfected forever, thats Security Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

That word perfected is in the perfect tense in the orignal, so its once and for all

Matthew Poole comments on this verse:

He hath perfected for ever: Christ, God-man, the gospel High Priest, by the one offering of himself a sacrifice for sin to God his Father, and once performed by him, hath secured perfection of justification, sanctification, and blessedness, perpetually to be continued, whereby the persons interested in it are qualified and consecrated to be priests to God and his Father, (as the Aaronical priests were by the sacrifice of the ram of consecration, Exodus 29:22,24), to serve in their proportion here, but especially after the completion of it by their resurrection, they shall perfectly serve him before his throne in the holy of holiest for ever, 1 Peter 2:9 Revelation 1:6 5:10 20:6.
 
Sep 28, 2023
948
177
43
Being 'cut off ' does not necessarily mean 'eternal life taken away'
That's what the devil keep saying thru the false doctrines of OSAS!

Of course it's not true, but the OSAS people continue being the devil's mouth piece to spread his deception.

2 Timothy 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.




Who is talking to whom?
Jesus is talking to those that do NOT abide in Him.



What is the subject?
Jesus is the Vine and people are the branches... people that don't abide on the Vine baring fruit are useless to the Lord so they are cut off and thrown in to the fire to be burned cause they are useless.



What is the occasion?
The occasion is the desires people to CHOOSE to want to abide in Him and those that CHOOSE not to are trimmed from the Vine due to not baring fruit and being useless
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,476
690
113
That's what the devil keep saying thru the false doctrines of OSAS!

Of course it's not true, but the OSAS people continue being the devil's mouth piece to spread his deception.

2 Timothy 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.






Jesus is talking to those that do NOT abide in Him.





Jesus is the Vine and people are the branches... people that don't abide on the Vine baring fruit are useless to the Lord so they are cut off and thrown in to the fire to be burned cause they are useless.





The occasion is the desires people to CHOOSE to want to abide in Him and those that CHOOSE not to are trimmed from the Vine due to not baring fruit and being useless
So, you are saying that no one can know if they are truly saved, until their last breath?
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,234
1,128
113
New Zealand
That's what the devil keep saying thru the false doctrines of OSAS!

Of course it's not true, but the OSAS people continue being the devil's mouth piece to spread his deception.

2 Timothy 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.






Jesus is talking to those that do NOT abide in Him.





Jesus is the Vine and people are the branches... people that don't abide on the Vine baring fruit are useless to the Lord so they are cut off and thrown in to the fire to be burned cause they are useless.





The occasion is the desires people to CHOOSE to want to abide in Him and those that CHOOSE not to are trimmed from the Vine due to not baring fruit and being useless
First verse for comparison:

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 KJV
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; [13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Here is Christians who are not faithful after conversion who still go to heaven, but have their bad works burned away with no reward.

Faithful Christians in this verse have their works tried in the fire and they are purified and they get rewards.

Both groups though...stay saved.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,305
556
113
That's what the devil keep saying thru the false doctrines of OSAS!

Of course it's not true, but the OSAS people continue being the devil's mouth piece to spread his deception.

2 Timothy 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.






Jesus is talking to those that do NOT abide in Him.





Jesus is the Vine and people are the branches... people that don't abide on the Vine baring fruit are useless to the Lord so they are cut off and thrown in to the fire to be burned cause they are useless.





The occasion is the desires people to CHOOSE to want to abide in Him and those that CHOOSE not to are trimmed from the Vine due to not baring fruit and being useless
Those who dont abide in Christ, its because He didnt die for them.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,234
1,128
113
New Zealand
Those who dont abide in Christ, its because He didnt die for them.
Hold up! Jesus did for all. Whosever believes in Him will be eternally saved.
That's what the devil keep saying thru the false doctrines of OSAS!

Of course it's not true, but the OSAS people continue being the devil's mouth piece to spread his deception.

2 Timothy 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.






Jesus is talking to those that do NOT abide in Him.





Jesus is the Vine and people are the branches... people that don't abide on the Vine baring fruit are useless to the Lord so they are cut off and thrown in to the fire to be burned cause they are useless.





The occasion is the desires people to CHOOSE to want to abide in Him and those that CHOOSE not to are trimmed from the Vine due to not baring fruit and being useless
Next verse for comparison:

(Mat 7:15) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
(Mat 7:16) Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
(Mat 7:17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
(Mat 7:18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
(Mat 7:19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
(Mat 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

These are not of believers who then fall away and lose eternal life.. . these are false converts who start as a bad tree without fruit. Later context of of Jesus calling these types ones 'he NEVER knew'
 
Oct 2, 2023
47
17
8
There are three legs upon which OSAS stands or falls. Do these verses mean what they supposedly mean, or have they been misunderstood and misapplied? When we examine them next to other scriptures that clearly contradict them will they hold up? Let's see.

First, 1 John 2:19—"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

The OSAS interpretation of this verse says that those who "went out" were never in Christ to begin with; they were never saved. However, I suggest there's another meaning that conforms very well with other scriptures. This view says that those who "went out" were indeed saved and in Christ at one point, but were simply not as committed as the others. It's in this sense that they were not "of us." These are those spoken of in the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:5-6): "Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away." It sprang up, it had life to start with; but it "withered away."

Jesus' explanation of this passage is found in Matthew 13:20-21—"As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away."

Second is 1 John 3:6—"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

This seems pretty cut and dried: if someone turns away back into sin they never knew Him. But we have to understand this in light of other scriptures that contradict it. Those who "never knew Him," never had a proper understanding of Him. This corresponds to the first group in the parable of the sower: "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart." The seed was "sown in his heart," but was snatched away because of this person's lack of understanding.

Third is John 10:28—"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." I agree with this verse: no one can indeed snatch them out of His hand. However, the person himself can walk away. For this reason I prefer the phrase "forfeit salvation" to "lose salvation."

Now let's look at some scriptures that plainly talk about walking away and falling away. I'm not going to use Hebrews because Hebrews is fiercely objected to by those who advocate OSAS, even though is has many relevant warnings about falling away. But Hebrews isn't necessary—there are plenty of others.

2 Peter 2:20-21"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."

This passage clearly illustrates a person who was once in Christ but who turned their back on Him. This shows a conscious action on the part of the one turning back. These verses correspond with Luke 9:26: "Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Matthew 24:10"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another."

1 Timothy 4:1"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons."

Matthew 24:13"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Why say that those who endure to the end will be saved? If one cannot forfeit their salvation, why didn't He say "But all who have prayed the sinners prayer will be saved?"

Luke 9:26"Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Already mentioned, Luke 9:26 is a clear warning from the Lord about falling away.
A genuine relationship with Jesus is what being a Christian is all about, and I believe a fair point to be made is that "lukewarmness" or "half-heartedness" in that relationship will absolutely cause a person to lose their grace of salvation with Jesus. (Rev. 3: 15-18) That alone disapproves once saved always saved.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,234
1,128
113
New Zealand
A genuine relationship with Jesus is what being a Christian is all about, and I believe a fair point to be made is that "lukewarmness" or "half-heartedness" in that relationship will absolutely cause a person to lose their grace of salvation with Jesus. (Rev. 3: 15-18) That alone disapproves once saved always saved.
Lukewarmness with the Loadiceans is a church losing the place of the Holy Spirit 'in the midst' of them. Not individuals having eternal life taken away.

Difference between indwelling Vs 'in the midst'
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,305
556
113
Hold up! Jesus did for all. Whosever believes in Him will be eternally saved.


Next verse for comparison:

(Mat 7:15) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
(Mat 7:16) Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
(Mat 7:17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
(Mat 7:18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
(Mat 7:19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
(Mat 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

These are not of believers who then fall away and lose eternal life.. . these are false converts who start as a bad tree without fruit. Later context of of Jesus calling these types ones 'he NEVER knew'
Sorry Jesus died only for His Sheep, and they shall never perish. Anyone perishing, means Christ didnt die for them