There will be no Rapture!!!

You are wrong that Rev 20 speaks of "all" the trib saints. It only focuses upon that one group. There are others such as the two prophets and the 144k and the two candlesticks/churches, and those mentioned in the 5th seal.


It's nonsense because you wrongly came up with that conclusion. I never said it, nor is it true.


See Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Tribulation and death is promised. That's called checkmate.

Christians are subject to the Trib. Rev 12:17

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


He returns when the trib is over, which is where the bible places the rapture.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)[/QUOTE]

Yea… that’s a pretty good point. It’s clear to me that the churches were giving warnings about the tribulation, why? If they’re not going to be here, they can’t implement the instructions given.

that's another thing.

first half of Trib, AC, allows people to WORSHIP the Most High God [jews are able to build their Temple and Worship the TRUE God] and Two Witnesses have no trouble until the AC makes war with them, which is AFTER mid-trib.

so, the first half of Tribulation is literally SATAN WRATH FREE.

so, why would God remove the CHURCH when it is SAFE and we're ALLOWED to WORSHIP Him?

Revelation 7:13
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Came out?

look at first part of Chapter 7, it describes the 144k, and then look at Chapter 14 [Same story just different viewpoint].

These are the Saints the 144k preached to and were Saved DURING TRIBULATION!

I see then first part of the tribulation without the antichrist, but his arrival marks the beginning of the second part… I believe the second part of the tribulation is 5 months.

No, they were sealed before the trib and the sealing would only be done to saved people.

2Co_1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph_1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph_4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Based on what?

i did not say the 144k were the ones who got saved, but preached and the multitude in Chapters 7 and 14 are the people saved from 144k's preaching.

I’ have many reasons why I believe as such.. We read…
Revelation 9:3
And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

And again…..

9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

well, bottom line, there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE AT ALL the CHURCH is in Heaven in Revelation Chapters 4-18.

Overcomers.

"To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

- Revelation 3:21

It is many dangers in believing in a rapture.
As it is written…
Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it, and whosoever will lose his life for My sake shall find it.

Bye bye friend.

Divine, where are you coming up with Irenaeus referring to men as divine as if they were God? I ask you in post #1230 if you believed we would be raised in the flesh(there is only flesh,a living soul or an spirit) you responded in post #1237 as if you had no idea what I meant. Where your quoting from is AH book 3,chapter 19 and AH book 5 it's preface, then chapters 1,2,3 ect. but Irenaeus never even used the word "divine". Men often insinuate that Irenaeus did when discrediting Irenaeus but never give the chapter or paragraph where he did. Not that I lay the charge upon you in it it's obvious you've not read AH but are only stating things you've heard others say.

'Church' is not mentioned in those chapters.

Nowhere in the book of Revelation is the word 'church' used to describe the saints in heaven. Many pretribbers make a big deal out of silence, no use of the word 'church', but it isn't used of the saints in heaven in those chapters either.

Can you prove the 144k do any preaching?

You said the second half of the trib was 5 months but you cited the 5th trump which is a timeframe before the trib even begins. How does that prove your claim exactly?

Plus the word candlestick is another way to say church and there are two candlesticks in Rev 11 which is in the tribulation. Those two churches are Christian and are a part of the general Church of Christ. To say the church is not found after or before certain chapters is simply false.