There will be no Rapture!!!

[Truthnightmare]

You said the second half of the trib was 5 months but you cited the 5th trump which is a timeframe before the trib even begins. How does that prove your claim exactly?

I disagree… the tribulation has already started when the 5th trump sounds…

Rev 9:1-13
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

 

[ewq1938]

I disagree… the tribulation has already started when the 5th trump sounds…

If so, then wouldn't that mean the first part of the trib was 5 months and not the second part? You said, "I believe the second part of the tribulation is 5 months."

Also, the 5th trump shows harm done by the enemy to those without the seal of God. Isn't tribulation described by Jesus in Matthew 24 supposed to be from the enemy against Christians? If so, the 5th trump isn't "the tribulation" because Christians are not the targets of the enemy yet.

 

[Truthnightmare]

If so, then wouldn't that mean the first part of the trib was 5 months and not the second part? You said, "I believe the second part of the tribulation is 5 months."

Also, the 5th trump shows harm done by the enemy to those without the seal of God. Isn't tribulation described by Jesus in Matthew 24 supposed to be from the enemy against Christians? If so, the 5th trump isn't "the tribulation" because Christians are not the targets of the enemy yet.

Rev 13:
2 And the beast [first beast, the NWO] which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon [second beast, the antichrist, satan in person] gave him his [first beast's] power, and his [first beast's] seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his [first beast] heads as it were wounded to death; and his [first beast] deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast [first beast] .

4 And they worshipped the dragon [antichrist] which gave power unto the beast [first beast] : and they worshipped the beast [first beast] , saying, Who is like unto the beast [first beast] ? who is able to make war with him [first beast] ?

5 And there was given unto him [first beast] a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

We see here reference to an event covered again later in the chapter (the speaking):​

Rev 13:13
15 And he [second beast, antichrist] had power to give life unto the image of the beast [first beast, NWO], that the image of the beast [first beast] should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast [first beast] should be killed.​

We shall reserve further comment on this verse until we get there.​

Rev 13:
6 And he [first beast] opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him [first beast] to make war with the saints, and to overcome [subdue] them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The first beast battles with Christians. This beast overcomes them. This beast is in universal control of the entire earth. It is the NWO fully realized. Incidentally, I do not identify these ‘saints’ as God’s Elect. These, I feel are other Christians (Christian rebels and patriots) who refuse to submit to the NWO. For the Elect are not overcome, they prevail by the operation of the Holy Spirit within them.​

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 13:
2 And the beast [first beast, the NWO] which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon [second beast, the antichrist, satan in person] gave him his [first beast's] power, and his [first beast's] seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his [first beast] heads as it were wounded to death; and his [first beast] deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast [first beast] .

4 And they worshipped the dragon [antichrist] which gave power unto the beast [first beast] : and they worshipped the beast [first beast] , saying, Who is like unto the beast [first beast] ? who is able to make war with him [first beast] ?

5 And there was given unto him [first beast] a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

​

We see here reference to an event covered again later in the chapter (the speaking):

​

Rev 13:13
15 And he [second beast, antichrist] had power to give life unto the image of the beast [first beast, NWO], that the image of the beast [first beast] should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast [first beast] should be killed.

We shall reserve further comment on this verse until we get there.

Rev 13:
6 And he [first beast] opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him [first beast] to make war with the saints, and to overcome [subdue] them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

​

The first beast battles with Christians. This beast overcomes them. This beast is in universal control of the entire earth. It is the NWO fully realized. Incidentally, I do not identify these ‘saints’ as God’s Elect. These, I feel are other Christians (Christian rebels and patriots) who refuse to submit to the NWO. For the Elect are not overcome, they prevail by the operation of the Holy Spirit within them.

This is not a response to what I said in my post. Please respond to what I said.

 

[Truthnightmare]

This is not a response to what I said in my post. Please respond to what I said.

You said the fifth trump isn’t the tribulation.
Is the 1st trump the tribulation?

The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

 

[ewq1938]

You said the fifth trump isn’t the tribulation.

Yes but I want to clarify something you said.


Actually you said the 5 months is the second part of the trib and being the 5th trump, it seems it would be the first part not the second.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Yes but I want to clarify something you said.


Actually you said the 5 months is the second part of the trib and being the 5th trump, it seems it would be the first part not the second.

Revelation 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. KJV​

Revelation chapter twelve covers BOTH PARTS of the Tribulation, and draws distinction between them both; i.e., 1260 days (42 Mo.) for the first, and time times and half (5 Mo. [shortened from Daniel's 3½ years by Christ in Mat 24:22) for the second.
Also, observe that satan-antichrist is cast out at the same time as the fallen angels:​

Revelation 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. KJV​

Moving to Revelation chapter nine, we see that these fallen angels (locust army) have five months time to work their works:​

Revelation 9:5
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. KJV​

And this same locust army/fallen angels mentioned again:​

Revelation 9:10
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. KJV​

We also see that satan/antichrist's time is concurrent with (running along with) the locust army/fallen angels:​

Revelation 9:10-12
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past [Fifth Trump]; and, behold, there come two woes more [6th & 7th Trumps] hereafter. KJV​

In verse 12 above we see that this all happens (satan and his angels arriving) in the Fifth Trump…..​

Revelation 9:12
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter. KJV​

There are three of the Trumps that are referred to as the "Woe Trumps," those being the fifth. sixth, and seventh. Therefore, the "one woe" that is "past" in the above is Fifth Trump, the remaining "two woes more hereafter" are the Sixth and Seventh Trumps.​

Revelation 8:12-13
12 And the fourth angel sounded [Forth Trump], and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe [1], woe [2], woe [3], to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels [5th, 6th, 7th Trumps], which are yet to sound! KJV​

 

[iamsoandso]

No really, no kidding,,, who's on first and what's on second,, thing is everyone's trying to figure if who scooped up the ball and and threw it to what first or if he stepped on first,first and then threw it to what and what threw it back to who at first...

 

[iamsoandso]

Who's pitching that's what I want to know because maybe the batter bunted and it glanced off the end of he pitchers glove and who scooped it up and threw it to what? Nope that cant be right because who's on first and everyone knows that who cant pitch and play first at the same time....hmm go figure.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Can you prove the 144k do any preaching?

We are most certain the 144k are indeed [[SERVANTS of God during the Tribulation]]:

3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed [[the servants]] of our God on their foreheads.”


And we know the Servants of God who were sealed are the 144k:

4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel.


So, from Verses 3 and 4, we know there 144k are indeed SEALED SERVANTS of God during the Tribulation.


And the way Scripture is laid out, we believe HOW these SERVANTS of GOD ""serve," [results] into a GREAT MULTITUDE of people Saved:

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands
+
14 ....... “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

That is from Revelation Chapter 7 ^


what we do know and believe:
the 144k are Servants of God who are Sealed.
and the ""Results of their Servitude"" is Multitudes of People SAVED during the Tribulation [WITHOUT being beheaded].

So, what do You think they were doing [in SERVING GOD] [HOW did they SERVE GOD to get this Result] that led to Multitudes of People being Saved?

Logically speaking, Evangelizing/Preaching, seems to be the most obvious and legit answer to ""how"" the 144k Served God.

 

[selahsays]

Evidence that the great tribulation has been shortened from 7 years to 5 months:

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

- Matthew 24:22 (KJV)

Shortened to:

And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

- Revelation 9:5 (KJV)

So then, according to Revelation 9:5, we can see that the 7 years have been shortened to 5 months—2 x 3 1/2 years shortened to 2 x 2 1/2 month segments.

 

[Omegatime]

A seven year period where the righteous has their days shortened makes far more sense

 

[selahsays]

A seven year period where the righteous has their days shortened makes far more sense

… but what does the Word say? And why does 3.5 years make more sense?

 

[selahsays]

We are most certain the 144k are indeed [[SERVANTS of God during the Tribulation]]:

3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed [[the servants]] of our God on their foreheads.”


And we know the Servants of God who were sealed are the 144k:

4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel.


So, from Verses 3 and 4, we know there 144k are indeed SEALED SERVANTS of God during the Tribulation.


And the way Scripture is laid out, we believe HOW these SERVANTS of GOD ""serve," [results] into a GREAT MULTITUDE of people Saved:

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands
+
14 ....... “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

That is from Revelation Chapter 7 ^


what we do know and believe:
the 144k are Servants of God who are Sealed.
and the ""Results of their Servitude"" is Multitudes of People SAVED during the Tribulation [WITHOUT being beheaded].

So, what do You think they were doing [in SERVING GOD] [HOW did they SERVE GOD to get this Result] that led to Multitudes of People being Saved?

Logically speaking, Evangelizing/Preaching, seems to be the most obvious and legit answer to ""how"" the 144k Served God.

. . .
Yes, there will be lots of evangelizing going on in the latter days if we consider the Elect, who will be delivered up and through whom the Holy Spirit will speak, the Two Witnesses, and the 144,000 servants.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

- Matthew 24:14 (KJV)

 

[notmyown]

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

hi, selah!

the end of what, do you think?

 

[selahsays]

hi, selah!

the end of what, do you think?

. . .
The end of this flesh age. At the 7th trump when Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the King of kings and Lord of lords returns, everyone will be changed into a spiritual body. At this very moment, the millennium will begin.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

- 1 Corinthians 15:52-55 (KJV)

 

[notmyown]

. . .
The end of this flesh age. At the 7th trump when Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the King of kings and Lord of lords returns, everyone will be changed into a spiritual body. At this very moment, the millennium will begin.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

- 1 Corinthians 15:52-55 (KJV)
View attachment 255934

i see it differently, but i truly appreciate your clarification.

 

[presidente]

We are most certain the 144k are indeed [[SERVANTS of God during the Tribulation]]:

3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed [[the servants]] of our God on their foreheads.”


And we know the Servants of God who were sealed are the 144k:

4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel.


So, from Verses 3 and 4, we know there 144k are indeed SEALED SERVANTS of God during the Tribulation.


And the way Scripture is laid out, we believe HOW these SERVANTS of GOD ""serve," [results] into a GREAT MULTITUDE of people Saved:

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands
+
14 ....... “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

That is from Revelation Chapter 7 ^


what we do know and believe:
the 144k are Servants of God who are Sealed.
and the ""Results of their Servitude"" is Multitudes of People SAVED during the Tribulation [WITHOUT being beheaded].

So, what do You think they were doing [in SERVING GOD] [HOW did they SERVE GOD to get this Result] that led to Multitudes of People being Saved?

Logically speaking, Evangelizing/Preaching, seems to be the most obvious and legit answer to ""how"" the 144k Served God.

Where does it say that the 144,000 were the only saints around when they were sealed?

 

[ZNP]

There will be no pre or mid tribulation rapture. This is an invention of the dispensationalists. The Pre-Rapture was invented by the dispensationalist John Darby in the 19th century. It did not exist before that. Church history did not know a Pre-Rapture before the 19th century.

The Bible clearly states that Christians must go through the Tribulation, for Revelation 20:4 describes how Christians will be beheaded for their faith during the Tribulation. If there really was a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then logically there would be no Christians in the Tribulation, but because there will be Christians in the Tribulation, that means there will be no Pre-Tribulation Rapture! Revelation 13:7 also declares that Christians will be given into the hand of the Antichrist, which means the Antichrist may overcome Christians and kill them.

Jesus will return only once and that is after the tribulation. Then he will gather all Christians.

Couple of logical questions

1. So then if you need to be beheaded does this mean the dead in Christ that after they are raised from the dead they must be beheaded? This sounds more like Islam than the New Testament.

2. Christians must go through tribulation. Are you saying the the Christian martyrs over the last two thousand years did not go through tribulation? What about Paul and all the apostles? If they have been going through tribulation for the entire church age then your argument makes no sense.

3. Where in the Bible does it say Christians must go through the 3 1/2 year tribulation at the end of the age to get raptured?

4. I agree that there will be Christians during the 3 1/2 year tribulation who do get beheaded. Logically, that means that not every Christian gets raptured at the beginning of that time period. We have many examples of this, 10 spies gave an evil report and never entered the good land, 2 gave a good report and did enter the good land. Jesus told Sardis that if they didn't repent He would come as a thief and they would be caught by surprise, He told Philadelphia that because they were faithful they would be kept out of the hour of trial. Why isn't this (some Christians are raptured, many aren't) a logical conclusion?

5. Revelation says that Christians will be given into the hand of the Antichrist and he will overcome them. But Paul says

Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors and gain an overwhelming victory through Him who loved us [so much that He died for us].

So why isn't it a logical conclusion that these Christians are deficient in faith? For example, in NYC if you fail the year end Regents exam you can go to summer school and then take it again in August. Why aren't these Christians like those who failed the exam the first time and get to take a second time?

 

[Aaron56]

Threads about the rapture always end too soon.