There will be no Rapture!!!

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presidente

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#701
May 29, 2013
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#701
cv5 said:
I have been trying to tell you bro (and warn others at the same time!)
.....you just don't get it. Never have.

Just to clarify: the rapture is in no way within the time-constraints of the DOTL.

On the contrary, we are SNATCHED/HARPAZOed OUT of the earth/planet/world BEFORE the DOTL begins.
And according to Scripture, our rapture is an absolute requirement BEFORE the DOTL can commence.

Therefore the "PLACE-TIME-CAUSE" of the DOTL cannot and does not affect/impact us in any way.
We are heavenly bystanders, enjoying our 7 year honeymoon with the Lord.
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Weren't you just endorsing the idea that the coming of Jesus described in II Thessalonians 1 describes events that occur on 'that day'. That passage teaches that the Lord Jesus will give the church rest from TRIBULATION when He comes to execute vengeance on them that believe not and to be glorified in them that believe.


Your post begs the question. Show us some BIBLICAL EVIDENCE for the idea that the rapture occurs before the tribulation. Don't just assume it and try to categorize verses and events in scripture based on a pre-trib presupposition.

Show me in the book of Revelation where the rapture of the church takes place before the tribulation. Show me the rapture of the church before the tribulation in Matthew 24. Show me in some other passage.
 
cv5

cv5

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#702
ewq1938 said:
It does say that:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There will be no gathering to Christ (rapture) until the Apostasy and man of sin's revealing takes place which places the rapture after the tribulation.
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NO. JUST NOOOOOOOO. Another day, another post-tribber epic reading comprehension fail.
Embarrassing? Yes. Do they care? I doubt it. If they did they would not make it again. But they do. Over and over and OVER AGAIN!

2Th 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (THE VERSE TWO DAY!) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
 
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presidente

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#703
May 29, 2013
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#703
cv5 said:
NO. JUST NOOOOOOOO. Another day, another post-tribber epic reading comprehension fail.
Embarrassing? Yes. Do they care? I doubt it. If they did they would not make it again. But they do. Over and over and OVER AGAIN!

2Th 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (THE VERSE TWO DAY!) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
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Look at 'that day' described in the previous chapter. Jesus returns, gives the saints rests, executing vengeance on them that believe not the Gospel, when He comes to be glorified in the saints.

The chapter numbers were added by a monk in the 4th century. This all flows together.
 
cv5

cv5

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#704
presidente said:
Weren't you just endorsing the idea that the coming of Jesus described in II Thessalonians 1 describes events that occur on 'that day'.
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Ahhh look friend, I am endorsing the PRE-TRIB rapture. Because it is Biblical boilerplate doctrine.
These passages are absolutely clear as a bell.

1Th 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


1Th 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; (BIRTH PANGS! SEALS!) and they shall not escape.

1Th 5:4
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1Th 5:9
For God hath NOT appointed US to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
 
Blade

Blade

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Nov 19, 2019
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ewq1938 said:
"tribulation saints" does not appear in the bible. They are just called saints and they entered the tribulation that way. Example, the two witnesses aren't trib converts. They are Christians anointed with the task of Christ's testimony during the trib. The bible places the rapture as after the trib not before it.

Here is the only passage about The Rapture that actually uses the Greek word that means a rapture, Harpazo:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

Here we see the second coming mentioned 3 times, then the resurrection and then the rapture. This proves the rapture is connected to the second coming. All that needs to be proven is when the second coming happens to know when the rapture happens.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


The second coming happens AFTER the GT is over, so the rapture happens post-Trib. Circumventing these two passages is to ignore the scriptural evidence of WHEN the rapture is going to happen.
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Hi EWQ :) Comparing 1st Th to Matt 24.. well they don't go together. Matt He was still living by and under the law. He was talking to His own and what they would see. There was no "Christian" no "Church" none would have understood what was not revealed until after Christ died and rose. You added "second coming reference" 3 times. I looked at over 20 different translations, then different Greek translations and nope none have "second coming reference". You didn't show why you believe its the second coming. If it helps you might watch Dr Michael Brown who is Jewish and knows Hebrew and Greek and was once pre-trib but now post-trib. The guy knows the word of God. Now he will not say Pre-trib is wrong. He just backs up what he believes by the word.

No I am not post trib nor do I have to defend knowing He will come get us that are watching and believe. Also I am strong in the faith not to boast other then to BOAST OF HIM! Which the OT were told is ALL we should boast about. He said "“Let not a wise man boast of his wisdom, and let not the mighty man boast of his might, let not a rich man boast of his riches; " Hmm Keep going "
My soul will make its boast in the Lord. The humble will hear it and rejoice." "Some boast in chariots and some in horses, But we will boast in the name of the Lord, our God. " ooh keep going " n God we have boasted all day long, And we will give thanks to Your name forever." That was only the OT!

Father I doubt not and have hope you are will come any moment to take those who watch are believe. No pre no mid no post. Just simply believe. For me its how I have seen wonders of my Father.. FAITH

I don't if ever say this.. that boasting is for someone. It came out of no where...ooh praise GOD.
 
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presidente

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cv5 said:
Ahhh look friend, I am endorsing the PRE-TRIB rapture. Because it is Biblical boilerplate doctrine.
These passages are absolutely clear as a bell.

1Th 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Click to expand...
We can see from Matthew when this coming of the Lord as a thief will occur.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
...

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The coming of the Son of man is set AFTER the tribulation. Then we read in this same passage.

Matthew 24
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

So we see the coming of the Son of man, compared to the coming of the thief is set 'after the tribulation.

And pre-tribbers typically set the rapture somewhere around Revelation 3 and 4.

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Pre-tribbers see this passage as deep into the tribulation period. But the coming as a thief thing still applies.

And this also exposes a problem with pre-trib. The immediate audience of his letter was for the messengers of the seven churches, who were supposed to hear the letters. And here is a message warning the churches that the Lord is coming as a theif and blessing the one who watches and keeps his garments.

This is supposed to be encouragement for the churches. But how can pretribbers interpret this except to divorce it from it's actually, quite obvious, immediate audience, and make it only applicable to some future group that even aren't a part of the church according to pre-tribbers.

And pretribbers do all of this without a single shred of Biblical evidence that Jesus is coming back two more times or that there is an additional coming of Christ to accompany the rapture besides the one described in Revelation 19.

1Th 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; (BIRTH PANGS! SEALS!) and they shall not escape.

1Th 5:4
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Click to expand...
Compare that to the exhortation from Revelation 16, buried deep in the 'tribulational' part of Revelation, about watching and keeping garments clean.


1Th 5:9
For God hath NOT appointed US to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
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The saints described in Revelation love not their lives, even to the death. The overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. There is no reason to think that God is angry at them. That does not make much sense. Since they believe in Jesus, we should believe that God saves them, that they obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no evidence for a pretrib rapture in the verses you quote.
 
cv5

cv5

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#707
presidente said:
Look at 'that day' described in the previous chapter. Jesus returns, gives the saints rests, executing vengeance on them that believe not the Gospel, when He comes to be glorified in the saints.

The chapter numbers were added by a monk in the 4th century. This all flows together.
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How could Scripture conflict with itself? O course it does not. 2 Thes 1 & 2, 1 Thes 4 & 5 all say the same thing:
Pre-trib/DOTL rapture.

2Th 1:6
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2Th 1:7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Might TRIBULATION ANGELS. Trumpet angels. Bowl angels. All kinds of angels announcing/warning of the soon Coming of the Lord Jesus.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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#708
presidente said:
Look at 'that day' described in the previous chapter. Jesus returns, gives the saints rests, executing vengeance on them that believe not the Gospel, when He comes to be glorified in the saints.
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You've done it again. :eek:

When you LEAVE OUT verse 9 totally (as you do here and have done in the past where I've pointed out your doing this), and then smoosh together the sentence in that missing verse's place (eliminating that part), you miss the point it is making, esp. regarding v.10's "when"... (besides the other things I've pointed out in past posts, to you, about this)
 
cv5

cv5

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#709
presidente said:
We can see from Matthew when this coming of the Lord as a thief will occur.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
...

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The coming of the Son of man is set AFTER the tribulation. Then we read in this same passage.

Matthew 24
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

So we see the coming of the Son of man, compared to the coming of the thief is set 'after the tribulation.

And pre-tribbers typically set the rapture somewhere around Revelation 3 and 4.

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Pre-tribbers see this passage as deep into the tribulation period. But the coming as a thief thing still applies.

And this also exposes a problem with pre-trib. The immediate audience of his letter was for the messengers of the seven churches, who were supposed to hear the letters. And here is a message warning the churches that the Lord is coming as a theif and blessing the one who watches and keeps his garments.

This is supposed to be encouragement for the churches. But how can pretribbers interpret this except to divorce it from it's actually, quite obvious, immediate audience, and make it only applicable to some future group that even aren't a part of the church according to pre-tribbers.

And pretribbers do all of this without a single shred of Biblical evidence that Jesus is coming back two more times or that there is an additional coming of Christ to accompany the rapture besides the one described in Revelation 19.



Compare that to the exhortation from Revelation 16, buried deep in the 'tribulational' part of Revelation, about watching and keeping garments clean.




The saints described in Revelation love not their lives, even to the death. The overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. There is no reason to think that God is angry at them. That does not make much sense. Since they believe in Jesus, we should believe that God saves them, that they obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no evidence for a pretrib rapture in the verses you quote.
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No need to bother replying. Christians are nowhere to be found in Matt 24 to begin with. And no Christians anywhere in Rev ch 6-18.
 
cv5

cv5

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cv5 said:
@selahsays ....every legit Bible scholar know that the Second Coming of Jesus occurs in Rev 11:19.
After the AC rises to eminence and makes war with the Saints. After the mark of the beast rolls out. After the bowl judgements are rendered for the beast-worshippers.
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I'm sure all the legit Bible scholars figured that one out instantly lol.
"every legit Bible scholar know that the Second Coming of Jesus occurs in Rev 19:11."
 
selahsays

selahsays

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@cv5
I said:
Satan comes at the 6th trump.
Jesus Christ comes at the 7th trump.

Don’t be deceived.

And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

- Mark 13:5-6 (KJV)

What gives you the right to alter my post? Shame on you; are you that desperate?

I stand by what I’ve said that Satan comes at the 6th trump and that Jesus Christ returns at the 7th trump. Are you saying that Satan returns at the 7th trump? Why have you omitted part of Revelation 11:15? Do you not believe that Jesus Christ, the Lord of lords and the King of kings, returns at the 7th trump?

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

- Revelation 11:15 (KJV)

Have you even read the book of Revelation? Is the Truth of God’s Word just a game to you?
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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#712
ewq1938 said:
It does say that:
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Click to expand...
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Click to expand...
[I changed the color, and bolded the words in v.2, to aid in making my point]

Look how your red emphasis completely bypasses / ignores / overlooks the "DAY" that verse 2 refers to (in the false claim). THAT's what v.3's "not" is referring back to... an earthly-located time-period of much duration, which is a distinct thing from "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" (v.1's distinct event).




[and that's besides the fact that the phrase in verse 2 is not "is at hand," but rather (the false claim saying) it "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [perfect indicative; transitive verb in Grk]"--that being "the day of the Lord" (and 1Th5:1-3 PROVES "when" it ARRIVES... not at His Second Coming!)]

There will be no gathering to Christ (rapture) until the Apostasy and man of sin's revealing takes place which places the rapture after the tribulation.
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But this is not what the sentence is saying; it's what your "made up" sentence says when you leave out [attention to] what v.3a ('that day') points back in reference to: the "DAY of the Lord" [earthly time period, consisting of 'judgments'] from verse 2!





[gotta dash... be back later... :D ]
 
selahsays

selahsays

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cv5 said:
I'm sure all the legit Bible scholars figured that one out instantly lol.
"every legit Bible scholar know that the Second Coming of Jesus occurs in Rev 19:11."
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You still playing games?
 
cv5

cv5

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#714
selahsays said:
@cv5
I said:
Satan comes at the 6th trump.
Jesus Christ comes at the 7th trump.

Don’t be deceived.

And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

- Mark 13:5-6 (KJV)

What gives you the right to alter my post? Shame on you; are you that desperate?

I stand by what I’ve said that Satan comes at the 6th trump and that Jesus Christ returns at the 7th trump. Are you saying that Satan returns at the 7th trump? Why have you omitted part of Revelation 11:15? Do you not believe that Jesus Christ, the Lord of lords and the King of kings, returns at the 7th trump?

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

- Revelation 11:15 (KJV)

Have you even read the book of Revelation? Is the Truth of God’s Word just a game to you?
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Troll away buddy lol. Every legit Bible scholar knows what that verse is saying and means. Obviously you do not.
So tell us: how can the "beast was taken" happen when the beast has not even showed up at the time of the 7th woe trumpet?
How can the beast rise to power when Christ is supposed to be ruling by the 7th Trumpet?

And @selahsays ....every legit Bible scholar know that the Second Coming of Jesus occurs in Rev 19:11.
After the AC rises to eminence and makes war with the Saints. After the mark of the beast rolls out. After the bowl judgements are rendered for the beast-worshippers.

Rev 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:16
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


Rev 8:7
The first angel sounded
Rev 8:8
And the second angel sounded
Rev 8:10
And the third angel sounded
Rev 8:12
And the fourth angel sounded
Rev 8:13
And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
Rev 9:1
And the fifth angel sounded (1ST WOE)
Rev 9:12
One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
Rev 9:13
And the sixth angel sounded (2ND WOE)
Rev 11:14
The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded (3RD WOE)
Rev 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. (7th TRUMPET 3RD WOE!)Woe to the inhabiters ***of the earth***and of the sea! for the ***devil*** is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Winning. You have to try it at least once in your life.
 
cv5

cv5

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#715
selahsays said:
You still playing games?
Click to expand...
Playing games if only to win against the bad guys buddy.
Winning winning winning. Its great feeling.

BTW, your attempts at exegesis are laughably bush league. Your status and purpose here could not be more clear to me. You ain't fooling anybody kid.
 
cv5

cv5

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cv5 said:
No need to bother replying. Christians are nowhere to be found in Matt 24 to begin with. And no Christians anywhere in Rev ch 6-18.
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Red-X's mean winning. Given the fact of their origin of course.

Its another rout in favor of the pre-tribbers no doubt about that.

Good grief @ewq1938 cannot even figure out that 2 Thes verse 3 points to verse 2! And he hasn't figured it out for YEARS.
@presidente makes the exact same error. Over and over again. Truly amazing.

Just incredible man.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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cv5 said:
This must be the worst mistake any post-tribber has ever made...
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While I disagree with selahsays's placement of events...

... I just wanted to say that, I personally see Rev12:12 (Satan cast down/out unto the earth... and his angels cast down/out with him... and that "woe unto the earth") as taking place at the FIFTH Trumpet / FIRST woe... at the MID-Trib point, when 1260 days yet remain (vv.6,14)... (so, at Rev9:1 "I saw a star FALL from heaven...", etc [when the bottomless pit is opened...])
 
cv5

cv5

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#718
Well....I must say that was a good day. Very productive. Smoked out the bad guys.

Back to work for a while. Everyone try and stay civil OK? And learn a thing or two from the pre-tribbers. That would be good too.
 
cv5

cv5

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TheDivineWatermark said:
While I disagree with selahsays's placement of events...

... I just wanted to say that, I personally see Rev12:12 (Satan cast down... and his angels cast down with him... and that "woe into the earth") as taking place at the FIFTH Trumpet / FIRST woe... at the MID-Trib point, when 1260 days yet remain (vv.6,14)...
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Do not disagree with you there. But what I am doing is disputing @selahsays claim that CHIRST IS REIGNING on the earth (or whatever he thinks) at the time of the 7th trumpet/3rd woe.

The fact of the matter is that Rev 12:12 is the necessary event that GIVES RISE TO THE ANTI-CHIRST BEAST. Because Satan literally indwells his physical body (on the earth) in the same way that he indwelt Judas.
 
B

bluto

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cv5 said:
No need to bother replying. Christians are nowhere to be found in Matt 24 to begin with. And no Christians anywhere in Rev ch 6-18.
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What an "asinine" statement for you to make.? You said, "Christians are nowhere to be found in Matt 24 to begin with. " It's no wonder you could not answer any of my questions? Telling me instead to "go to the go to guy?"

For one thing when the disciples ask Jesus at Matthew 24:3, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming, and the end of the age/world?" Are not Christians not going to be around when the end of the world happens? What your doing in logic is making an argument from silence.

Just because (in this case) Christians are not specifically mentioned in Matthew 24 does not mean they will be around at the end of the world. In fact, the Apostle Paul talked about this at 2 Thessalonians 1:6-7, when CHRISTIANS will get rest/relief when? Vs7, and give to you relief/rest who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire."

Paul explains further at chapter 2 vs3-8. "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way." Who's the restrainer cv5? Vs8, And then the lawless one, (the antichrist) will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming."

Here again, the Apostle Paul backs up Jesus with what He stated at Matthew 24:15. Compare this with 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 and the man of sin is revealed. From reading your post you are still playing in the little league and your far from ready to play in the big leagues Mr. not to go to guy? :rolleyes:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
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