Is America the Babylon of scripture? NO!

Mem · Aug 30, 2023

Thanks for your replies, and understand this is not really a debate but more so different declarations of belief. Both of you referenced Rev 11:8, "...the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified," and @Truthnightmare has seen it as literal Jerusalem and the @SpeakTruth101 does not. I can see it either way and will refrain from either agreeing or disagreeing as both lines of reasoning may be valid without being sound (or is it sound without being valid, I may need a refresher course in logic).

I do wonder if Sodom and Egypt are representative of metropolises of sin and bondage, and thus might apply to Anytown, Earth where these states of being occur, including literal Jerusalem, as it would seem that the spiritual belongs in the spiritual application, and so Babylon, Earth would be a 'great city' indeed if the term does have unlimited worldwide applicability. And, at the same time, I also wonder if "Jerusalem" can also be look at in this way, with the only (physical) distinction between the two, the great cities Babylon and Jerusalem, being their locale of origin.

seekingthemindofChrist · Aug 30, 2023

Truthnightmare said:

I do not believe that any nation is godly because that nation would need to be a theocracy.

However, I do believe that there are godly people in every nation, and I think that this verifies that belief:

Revelation 5:8-10

"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

Locoponydirtman · Aug 30, 2023

Truthnightmare said:

Israel is the diaspora of Christians scattered through out the world. Luther called the right hand kingdom.

ResidentAlien · Aug 30, 2023

Aussie52 said:

Yup

Romans1012 · Aug 30, 2023

Truthnightmare said:

The USA is not a Christian country, nor was it. It is the worst country in the world and has committed the greatest crimes. The history of the USA began with genocide. And the USA has kidnapped and enslaved millions of people. And the media of the USA, the film and music industry, have poisoned the whole world. And the US has invaded many countries.

The USA is a Jewish country. The most powerful of the USA are in fact Jews, that's just the way it is.

Babylon the Great is Jerusalem, that's true. But Jerusalem as the capital of the Jews represents the whole nation of the Jews. That is why Babylon the Great is Israel. And since the Jews founded and control the USA, the USA belongs to Babylon. There are two Jewish countries in the world, the USA and Israel.

There are hardly any Christians living in the USA. Most are dispensationalists, who are not Christians. Even the church fathers curse the dispensationalists. But the dispensationalists don't care because they think they know everything better.

ewq1938 · Aug 30, 2023

Truthnightmare said:

Your only "evidence" is that Jerusalem and Babylon are called a great city. That isn't strong evidence.

Jon_1:2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.

Nineveh is called a great city too. Any large and important city is a great city and are MANY great cities in the world.

Differences between Babylon and Jerusalem:

Babylon is a symbolic city and will be fully destroyed according to the book of Revelation. Jerusalem is a literal city and is not destroyed according to the book of Revelation.

Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

Jerusalem is not burned down nor is it a port city. It simply doesn't fit the description of Babylon or it's demise.

Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

No ships at Jerusalem.

Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

Babylon is found no more at all yet Jerusalem still stands and is occupied at the end of the thousand years when Satan leads an army to surround it.

Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Jerusalem/Israel is one of the nations deceived by Babylon.

In Rev 11:2 before the Great Tribulation starts, Jerusalem is called "the holy city" so it was considered holy even right up to just before the Great Tribulation begins. Only during the 42 months of the AC's reign does the city become "Sodom and Egypt" because the abomination of desolation causes a spiritual desolation in Jerusalem. By Revelation 11:8 the Great Tribulation is almost over. Jerusalem is never a single time called Babylon in scripture but it is called Sodom and Egypt. Jerusalem is a literal city but Babylon is a symbolic city, symbolized by a religious whore that rides the ten horned beast. Babylon must therefore be something far larger and global than any one literal city. She is all cities and peoples of the entire world who accepts the false religion of the false god.

Revelation 18
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

Babylon will be thrown down and never found again yet Jerusalem will exist past the destruction of Babylon, well into the future:

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Jerusalem is not Babylon.

selahsays · Aug 30, 2023

There are lots of ideas and theories about all this, and we’re all doing our best to understand. Here’s how I see it:

The ”city” that we are told in Revelation 18:4 to “Come out of her, my people” is given a name in Revelation chapter 17:
And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

- Revelation 17 (KJV)

The harlot is the city—Mystery Babylon The Great.

Remember Nimrod and how he went out of the presence of God? Remember his city of Babel? Well, God scattered them and confused their languages causing confusion (Babel). We are to come out of confusion. I don’t believe this city is literal; it’s more like “mental” or maybe “spiritual” —Christians need to draw the line when it comes to believing all the “bullcrap” we are being told by them to become a part of or to accept. We need to look around and notice what “they’re” up to. We need to be vigilant. Look at the way Politics and Finance and Religion and Education are being molded and changed; notice, too, how many folks are going along with all the evil and junk they promote! Is it political correctness? I don’t know, but we should be able to see how it is that wrong is now right and right is now wrong! God tells us to come out of her!

In Jeremiah 25 we can read prophecy about God’s cup of wrath. Sounds like it’s worldwide—it’s all the nations.

SpeakTruth101 · Aug 30, 2023

Mem said:

I never said it was not Jerusalem, you just claimed I aid that, it is not in my post. it is but as those other passages also say it is not limited to a single place,

as it says

Revelation 17:

17:1, "And one of the seven messengers who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying to me, "Come, I shall show you the judgment of the great whore sitting on many waters, (Rev 17:15)

17:15, "And he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the whore sits, are peoples, and crowds, and nations, and tongues."

Meaning it covers many countries. as I said before but it is not contained to a certain location

Also you are correct in keeping an open mind, respect on that, for me when I look at prophecy even if im 99% sure, I keep an open mind that it could be something else, for all through history people thought they had it figured out and many were wrong, some were right tho.

Truthnightmare · Aug 30, 2023

Romans1012 said:

The USA is not a Christian country, nor was it. It is the worst country in the world and has committed the greatest crimes. The history of the USA began with genocide. And the USA has kidnapped and enslaved millions of people. And the media of the USA, the film and music industry, have poisoned the whole world. And the US has invaded many countries.

The USA is a Jewish country. The most powerful of the USA are in fact Jews, that's just the way it is.

Babylon the Great is Jerusalem, that's true. But Jerusalem as the capital of the Jews represents the whole nation of the Jews. That is why Babylon the Great is Israel. And since the Jews founded and control the USA, the USA belongs to Babylon. There are two Jewish countries in the world, the USA and Israel.

There are hardly any Christians living in the USA. Most are dispensationalists, who are not Christians. Even the church fathers curse the dispensationalists. But the dispensationalists don't care because they think they know everything better.

The USA is a Jewish country? How so? The last census taken shows about 60% of Americans claim to be Christian… If this is correct your whole premise comes into question.

Truthnightmare · Aug 30, 2023

Aussie52 said:

I’m not selling anything… I left 40 prophecies concerning Israel… All I ask is you tell me what race of people fulfilled those prophecies.

Mem · Aug 30, 2023

SpeakTruth101 said:

I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong here as I will not begrudge anyone their own mind to think for themself. The truth doesn't change no matter how we might characterize it.

+My apologies if I did not express it to your satisfaction, but the statement was an attempt to summarize your conclusion, even if it is 01% inconclusive. with note that a grain of salt always accompanies anything anyone says about any subject, no exceptions.

Please clarify, but in just one statement if you don't mind, I might have ADD. At any rate, without going back and reading over all the posts again, I'm certain I recall correctly that you do not believe America is Israel, so I gather you 99% believe it more possibly is Babylon and not Jerusalem, correct? Again, I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong here, only exercising my liberty to join in the discussion, however clumsily my skill in communication might present itself.

SpeakTruth101 · Aug 30, 2023

Mem said:

Just so you know, I wasnt being stern I was just pointing out I didnt say that exact thing, I went back and read my post and honetly I can see how you thought that tho, because I didnt clearly state differently. SO no issue I hold no grudge, it was probably good for me to clarify .

America is not Israel, there might be Hebrews of the 12 tribes living in it, but that does not make it Israel.

Because Rev 17 says Babylon "sits on many waters, peoples, nations, etc" I think that yes there is a good possibility that america is part of it, but there are other places that have stronger matching traits, but again "many waters"

Finaly you are fine, its a complex topic and I suppose I didnt clearly state my view.

posthuman · Aug 30, 2023

Truthnightmare said:

Who do you think they are?

posthuman · Aug 30, 2023

Truthnightmare said:

i believe that belief is highly debatable, in fact much contested and generally rejected - and not just because of the stance that Jews are the people actually descended from Jacob. there is the whole British-Israelism movement, and another group who claims negroes are the actual Israelites, and probably a dozen others, I imagine, but would have to look it up.

personally i do not believe America has replaced Israel not do I believe the church to have replaced Israel.

ThyKingdomComeSoon · Aug 30, 2023

Truthnightmare said:

Many Americans, Canadians and Europeans are the from lost tribes of Israel, my ancestors could be from the tribe of Benjamin. Only the lord knows exactly where they are however. They will be called back to jesusalem shortly after Jesus second coming
See Jeremiah 30 for context. Also;

Jeremiah 31:7-8
For thus says the LORD:
“ Sing with gladness for Jacob,
And shout among the chief of the nations;
Proclaim, give praise, and say,
‘ O LORD, save Your people,
The remnant of Israel!’
Behold, I will bring them from the north country,
And gather them from the ends of the earth,
Among them the blind and the lame,
The woman with child
And the one who labors with child, together;
A great throng shall return there.

Jeremiah 31:10
' Hear the word of the LORD, O nations,
And declare it in the isles afar off, and say,
' He who scattered Israel will gather him,
And keep him as a shepherd does his flock.'
Amos 9:9
" For surely I will command,
And will sift the house of Israel among all nations,
As grain is sifted in a sieve;
Yet not the smallest grain shall fall to the ground.
Hosea 1:11
Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel
Shall be gathered together,
And appoint for themselves one head;
And they shall come up out of the land,
For great will be the day of Jezreel!

Blessings.

The_Watchers_2017 · Aug 30, 2023

ThyKingdomComeSoon said:

This is a Fact!
My Ancestors, can trace their lineage back to 70 AD from the disbursement of Israel to the Netherlands/Holland then to Brazil and in the early 1700's to New York City, New York.

ThyKingdomComeSoon · Aug 30, 2023

The_Watchers_2017 said:

Many people if they take the time to do their lineage may be surprised, I suspect many here are from the lost tribes they just do not know it yet..

Blessings.

Pilgrimshope · Aug 30, 2023

Truthnightmare said:

Scripture then tells us that the woman is the great city (Jerusalem):

amen I agree!!!

She began beautiful and was due to deliver a son who would rule from Gods throne

“And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars Jacobs’s dream of Israel) and she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.”( she was expecting the messiah to be born and bring her salvation from her birth pains )
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭7:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Israel was expecting that promise of the messiah Then the son was born the woman gave birth

“And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and the dragon failed to devour him …and he was raised up into heaven to the throne

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: ( his eternal and u breakable words in the gospel) and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭

rods of iron do not break or fail

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The ruler and his rod of iron

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of ( one name singular ) the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: ( three known aspects of himself ) teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I ( the son who is god among us ) have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭

rods of iron do not bend and mishape they remain the same

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

She’s definetely isreal you can see how the dragon pursued her into the wilderness then the next time she’s shown she’s riding the dragons beast and holding her cup of fornocation she poured out in the earth the beautiful woman is israel the whore is israel after she broke the covenant and had worshipped all false gods for centuries and sacrofoces children to them and made idols and temples and claimed every god but the true God

If one looks at the history of Israel and the Jewish people there’s no doubt of Gods true words and how important itnis that we hear and believe him that both the things he promises that will bless and also curse are true the warning also as true as the hope

god chooses anyone that will receive him but he also requires they really accept him as the lord including his words that ere telling mankind how to escape from deaths grip by sin upon us all

Romans1012 · Aug 30, 2023

Truthnightmare said:

Rev 17:9
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. (KJV)

Below we see that this woman sits upon the peoples, all the peoples (the sea — the waters = the peoples):

Rev 17:15
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. (KJV)

Mystery Babylon is that woman:

Rev 14:8
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication [religious adultery]. (KJV)

Scripture then tells us that the woman is the great city (Jerusalem):

Rev 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. (KJV)

We see Jerusalem referred to as that great city even in the Old Testament:

Jer 22:8
8 And many nations shall pass by this city, and they shall say every man to his neighbour, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this great city? (KJV)

Finally, Scriptures nails down, without any room for doubt, the exact location and thus the identity of the great city:

Rev 11:8
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. (KJV)

And after the end of this age, after the great Judgment Day, after the old things are done away with, after all evil and evil doers are cast into the Lake of Fire (commonly referred to as 'going to hell'), the new Heaven and new earth (commonly referred to as Heaven) is identified as the great city Jerusalem (rejuvenated and with God present):

Rev 21:10
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, (KJV)

America is not Babylon! America is the greatest Christian nation existing, had not God so blessed America (and her brother nation Great Britain) the world would not have any Christian nations left. This was done by God's good pleasure and His design, we are strong and feared militarily worldwide, and because of that, Christianity has been allowed to exist globally. if you remove Great Britain and America from the history of the world, Christianity would have long ago become not. But God was and is always in control.

Sadly though, the end-time Jerusalem shall be Babylon, God's holy city wholly trodden under and defiled; for it is there that the antitype to the 'King of Babylon,' i.e., (antichrist/satan/dragon/serpent/devil/son of perdition/man of sin/ &c. — many names, same entity — see Gen 3:15, Rev 12:9, Rev 20:2, &c.) shall sit and rule the world:

II Th 2:2-4
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ [the Second Advent] is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [the Second Advent], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition [the antichrist];
4 Who [the antichrist] opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (KJV)

There is only one place on the planet that would contain the "the temple of God," that is Jerusalem, that great city. For satan shall sit there imitating the Lord (as the antichrist, the instead-of christ), no other place would do, for satan is vain and proud and shall seek to become as God; he will not set up some cheap temple in some second-rate city anywhere else in the world, he will reign (falsely) from Jerusalem, that great city, "shewing himself that he is God."

In prophecy, America is Manasseh and Israel, as Britain is Ephraim and Israel in prophecy — they are brothers who received the blessings from their father Joseph (by God's approval & design), see Gen 48:8-22. Israel is wherever the Israel peoples are.

In prophecy, 'Jerusalem' and 'Judah' and 'Zion' are the location of modern day Israel (in Palestine). The reason being that the Israel peoples are not now in the modern day Israel of the Middle East, they (true Israel) are in the places whence they were scattered (America, Great Britain, &c.). The people currently in the modern day state of Israel are not the Biblical Israel peoples, they are mostly (not all!) impostors of the house of Edom (Esau & Kenites & Khazars &c.), mixed in with some of true Judah. They are mostly (not all!) the people spoken of below:

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. (KJV)

Rev 2:9
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. (KJV)

Israel is Babylon: The Antichrist will be a Muslim!!! - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

Truthnightmare · Aug 30, 2023

Romans1012 said:

I see the antichrist as merely a role… a role that satan plays.. Just like he is called the dragon when he is starting wars.. just like he is called Lucifer before his fall. Just like he is called a serpent when he is being tricky. Just like he is called Satan when he is adversary to God… Different roles, same entity.. I will expand more on the thread you provided. Peace

Is America the Babylon of scripture? NO!

Senior Member

Casting down imaginations

Locoponydirtman

Guest

Well-known member

Banned

Well-known member

Well-known member

Active member

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

Active member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Banned

Well-known member

Well-known member

Banned

Banned