bluto, I appreciate your post, agree with just about all of it. Since this post is about better understanding Jesus preincarnate, I would like you and all who are following this thread to consider the following, for the purpose of better understanding our amazing God.
First, I have come to understand that the Bible never contradicts itself. If we consider certain texts to be contradictive it is because our understanding is wrong, therefore we must rethink the issue until the contradiction is resolved.
Your comment above bluto, is a perfect example. I hope you don't become defensive and start firing poison arrows at me, because my motive is not to make me look better informed than you, but rather to share with others what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me, for His Glory.
You referenced Gen. 22, as proof that Michael the archangel, "is not," the Angel of the Lord. With that thought in mind consider the contradicting that occurs with the two texts given in the following: It is the last point of eight given to prove that Mechael the archangel is Jesus preincarnate, by this individual of whom I have know for over thirty five years, and she is not an JW.
POINT EIGHT: Jesus encouraged us to: “Search the Scriptures.” (
John 5:39) It is very important to compare texts throughout the different books of the Bible, for there is no single writer found in the Old or New Testament who had all of God’s truth revealed to them. Each inspired writer was given a glimpse of the heavenly vision. If our hearts “thirst” after truth, we must carefully search with all our hearts and read all that the Bible says about any given subject.
The apostles, John and Paul, give a good example of how two texts can describe the same event, but in slightly different ways. Paul says dead believers are resurrected at the voice of the Archangel.
“For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.” (
1 Thessalonians 4:16)
John records that the Lord Jesus said the dead righteous would be resurrected at the sound of His own voice.
“I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. . . . And He has given Him authority to judge because He is the Son of Man. Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out – those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.” (
John 5:25-29) These parallel passages are speaking of the same event. Paul, in Thessalonians, calls it “the voice of the Archangel” and John, in His gospel, calls it “the voice of the Son of God.”
When Christ returns to call His faithful ones to life, every angel in heaven will come with Him: “The Son of Man shall come in His glory, and
all the holy angels with Him.” (
Matthew 25:31) He is their Commander! There is no mystery here – Jesus, the Life-giver, is also, Michael, the Archangel, preincarnate.
Should anyone be interested in hearing her other seven points just let me know.
I completely understand the points you are making and I know (a couple) solid Trinitarian believers who do think Jesus Christ in His preincarnate state think He is Michael the arc angel. Some also believe He is "Melchizedek" as well. Of course I don't believe that either.
First things first by providing the definition of "angel." The Hebrew word for angel is "malak." In the strictest sense it simply means "messenger." Some think it means an actual angel and this based on the fact that real angels are "messengers" Men are called "malak/angel/messengers" and a good example of this is at Malachi 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send My "malak/angel/messenger" and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the "malak/angel/messenger" of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming, says the Lord of hosts."
The messenger that is coming to clear the way of the Lord is John the Baptist, and he is not an angel, except maybe to his mother. This is proven at Mark 1:1-4. Getting back to Malachi, who's the messenger of the covenant? Will get to that later. And btw, the prophet "Maalachi," well his name is from the word "malak." Afterall, prophets are messengers as well.
Now, getting back to Genesis 22 which I deem absolute proof that the angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ. As I explained in my first post to you from Genesis 22, actual angels 'CANNOT" swear oaths on behalf of God Almighty Himself. I'm going to cut to the chase on this, although I could get extensive. You have at Genesis 22:11-15 calling out of the heavens to Abraham and saying at Genesis 16, "and said, "By Myself I have sworn declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, you only son, Vs17, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies." (As a side note Isaac was not Abraham' s only son, he had Ishmael first.
The bottom line in all of this is the fact that actual angel's CANNOT swear oaths on behalf of God, period. It is true that angels represent God at times but they cannot swear oaths on behalf of Him. This is made clear at Hebrews 6:13-17. "For when GOD made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD NOT SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BYHIMSELF, vs14, saying, I will surel bless you, and I will surely multiply you. vs15, and thus, having patiently waited, he/Abraham obtained the promise.
Vs16, "For men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation is an end of every dispute. Vs17, "In the same way GOD desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath." Now, here's an interesting side note and is taken from Revelation 10:5-6. It shows that angels by themselves can swear an oath. "And the angel whom I say standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven, vs6, and swore BY HIM WHO LIVES FOREVER AND EVER, Who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there shall be delay no longer." Even here angels swear oaths by God Himself.
There's another very important aspect to this subject, the swearing of oaths. The Jews have a legal concept of "agency" whereby the lawful acts of someone authorized by, and acting on behalf of another or the "principal/shaliach" (in this case Jesus Christ) acting on behalf of God). This is from the Jewish virtual library, not something I made up.
As a result of the "shaliach/agency, the possible field of legal activity is extended beyoun the normal physical limitations. In short, the "agent/shaliach" Bet Shammai and Bet Hillel agreed that a person appointed to the Tosefta (Kid. 4:1) is disqualified from acting as a witness in a case involving such mandate. In other words, (and this is true in any court case down through history), if you witnessed a crime of any kind, you cannot send your Uncle Harry as a witness to testify for you. Even if you cannot make to court for some reason the court will send a court official to "DEPOSE" you.
Now, you mentioned to me about contradictions which I agree with, there are no contradictions in the Bible. You brought this up as it relates to a couple of passages relating to Michael the arc angel. In order for it to be a legitimate contradiction you have first prove that Jesus Christ is in reality Michael the arc angel. Having a couple of similar text is not proof. I can have the voice of dog barking, it does not make me a dog. Anyone can make an assertion, in the big leagues you have to prove your assertion.
IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
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