Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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Hebrews 13:20 “And the Mighty One of peace who brought up our Master יהושע from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.”
John 8:24, “Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.”
John/Yahanan 5:24, "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
John 8:24, “Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.”
John/Yahanan 5:24, "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
Yes, Jesus is demonstrating that the unsaved are spiritually dead and incapable of comprehending things spiritual.
God demands that all of the unsaved abide in and follow His doctrines and laws and they will be judged accordingly for not doing so, but, that doesn't mean that they can. In the Bible God sets-forth a lot of demands for the unsaved which they will be unable to satisfy, nevertheless, those remain His requirements. This is not unfair of God because He is giving to the unsaved what they desire to have, which is to be judge by their works, not by His grace.
God demands that all of the unsaved abide in and follow His doctrines and laws and they will be judged accordingly for not doing so, but, that doesn't mean that they can. In the Bible God sets-forth a lot of demands for the unsaved which they will be unable to satisfy, nevertheless, those remain His requirements. This is not unfair of God because He is giving to the unsaved what they desire to have, which is to be judge by their works, not by His grace.
F
I don’t think so. That’s a stretch don’t you think? Jesus waving an unobtainable spiritual rebirth in front of Nicodemus. That dosent line up with the heart of the Father. The way I see this is that Jesus is demonstrating the accessibility to anyone who calls on the name of Jesus in their hearts into of the Kingdom. We read only lines earlier.
“You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’”
John 3:7 NIV
Jesus expected Jews namely Nicodemus in this instance to understand this concept.
God has an elect but becoming the elect is available to all who choose to believe as an act of the will in their hearts.
“And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.”
Matthew 18:13-14 NIV
“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 NIV
“I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.””
Luke 13:3-5 NIV
“that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”
John 3:15, 18 NIV
“You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’”
John 3:7 NIV
Jesus expected Jews namely Nicodemus in this instance to understand this concept.
God has an elect but becoming the elect is available to all who choose to believe as an act of the will in their hearts.
“And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.”
Matthew 18:13-14 NIV
“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 NIV
“I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.””
Luke 13:3-5 NIV
“that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”
John 3:15, 18 NIV
1 Peter 1:18-21, “Knowing that you were redeemed from your futile behavior inherited from your fathers, not with what is corruptible, silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Messiah, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, but manifested in these last times for your sakes, who through Him believe in Elohim who raised Him from the dead and gave Him esteem, so that your belief and expectation are in Elohim.”
John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”
Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"
Luke 11:28, But He said, “Blessed rather are those hearing the Word of Yah and watching over it!”
Luke 8:21, “And He answering, said to them, “My mother and My brothers are those who are hearing the Word of Yah and doing it.”
John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”
Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"
Luke 11:28, But He said, “Blessed rather are those hearing the Word of Yah and watching over it!”
Luke 8:21, “And He answering, said to them, “My mother and My brothers are those who are hearing the Word of Yah and doing it.”
@FollowingtheWay
False witness , becoming an elect isnt available to all, thats nonsense you made up
False witness , becoming an elect isnt available to all, thats nonsense you made up
No, I don't think it is a stretch because Jesus and God made events occur in the Bible for the express purpose of edifying the Saints- not for just the immediate historical situation that was occurring.
Remember the Bible is not just a historical book where we are permitted to peek over the shoulders of its participants to observe events. Instead, it was primarily written by God as a book to make the man of God thoroughly furnished unto all good works. As such, the Bible must within itself, be fully complete, therefore, it must address and teach all aspects of salvation solely from within itself, without anything external to itself to do so.
No, election is not available to all, if it were, it wouldn't t be called election. A person cannot elect themselves to salvation. The elect are also called the chosen.
Regarding 2 Peter 3:9, the "to us-ward not willing that any should perish", the "us-ward" are the elect. You can see that by going back to chapter 1 in the book's salutation where we are informed whom the audience was that Paul was addressing. He was addressing those who had already obtained "like precious faith through Jesus Christ" - the elect. They represented the same people as in 3:9, but who had yet to become born-again.
Regarding Luke 13:5, again, Jesus is putting forth a warning, but those He was warning could not spiritually hear and so did not believe or respond to Him. His warning was for them to cease in following false gods. So, the point is one of who are those who can spiritually hear. Further, we are informed that true repentance, in order to worship the true God, must come as a gift from God:
[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
Regarding John 3:15 - 18, again, true belief is a gift from God to those born again by His Holy Spirit. It cannot be produced by man.
Remember the Bible is not just a historical book where we are permitted to peek over the shoulders of its participants to observe events. Instead, it was primarily written by God as a book to make the man of God thoroughly furnished unto all good works. As such, the Bible must within itself, be fully complete, therefore, it must address and teach all aspects of salvation solely from within itself, without anything external to itself to do so.
No, election is not available to all, if it were, it wouldn't t be called election. A person cannot elect themselves to salvation. The elect are also called the chosen.
Regarding 2 Peter 3:9, the "to us-ward not willing that any should perish", the "us-ward" are the elect. You can see that by going back to chapter 1 in the book's salutation where we are informed whom the audience was that Paul was addressing. He was addressing those who had already obtained "like precious faith through Jesus Christ" - the elect. They represented the same people as in 3:9, but who had yet to become born-again.
Regarding Luke 13:5, again, Jesus is putting forth a warning, but those He was warning could not spiritually hear and so did not believe or respond to Him. His warning was for them to cease in following false gods. So, the point is one of who are those who can spiritually hear. Further, we are informed that true repentance, in order to worship the true God, must come as a gift from God:
[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
Regarding John 3:15 - 18, again, true belief is a gift from God to those born again by His Holy Spirit. It cannot be produced by man.
F
My conscience is clear. Holy Spirit hasn’t convicted me of being in error to the way I’m interpreting scripture. And as I already told rogerg there are plenty of well respected theologians who believe that belief is an act of the will. You can accept the opposing view to yours or not. It’s really small cookies to me because it’s not an essential to the faith so I’m not going to get dogmatic and hurl baseless insults (nice show of your lack of fruit by the way) . At this point we’re just going to go around in circles because it’s exactly the same things that theologians have argued for centuries and I’m humble enough to at least admit that I’m not nearly as intelligent as they on either side of it. So I will leave you to your bias. ☮️🕊💕
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The author's choice of verbiage makes it rather clear that he (Peter) is speaking of apostasy.
You may not believe that apostasy exist but there is no reason for both the verbiage of this scripture or even the need for this scripture if apostasy does not exist.
In other words, you don't waste ink on warning people about something that cannot happen to them.
You may not believe that apostasy exist but there is no reason for both the verbiage of this scripture or even the need for this scripture if apostasy does not exist.
In other words, you don't waste ink on warning people about something that cannot happen to them.
He’s warning the Brethren that wolves will invade the Church, and to be on the look out for them, that LOOK like sheep, but are actually dogs and pigs.
On apostasy, have Churches like Lutheran, and Episcopal, Methodist, etc become apostate with their acceptance, and glorification of homosexuality?
So the attendees still go, but that doesn’t mean they were ever saved.
But again, if people like you want to believe you can lose your salvation, by all means do so. You probably can.
But we can’t. Because we know, and are known by, Him who gave it, and holds it for us.
And we won’t insult Him by thinking our works will keep us saved.
On apostasy, have Churches like Lutheran, and Episcopal, Methodist, etc become apostate with their acceptance, and glorification of homosexuality?
So the attendees still go, but that doesn’t mean they were ever saved.
But again, if people like you want to believe you can lose your salvation, by all means do so. You probably can.
But we can’t. Because we know, and are known by, Him who gave it, and holds it for us.
And we won’t insult Him by thinking our works will keep us saved.
Here is the text:
2 Peter 2:20-22
New American Standard Bible
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
Once again, there is no need to waste ink "warning the Brethren" about something that cannot happen. If wolves cannot destroy you why worry?
Peter is speaking of two states of existence, knowing the way that was handed to you and turning away from that given hand.
You will not accept the latter because of your OSAS theology but it is clearly there.
Denominations do not choose apostasy, individuals do. This is just a strawman, I will not bite.
"Probably can."? Which one is it?
Simply drivel, no one is making such a claim.
2 Peter 2:20-22
New American Standard Bible
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
Once again, there is no need to waste ink "warning the Brethren" about something that cannot happen. If wolves cannot destroy you why worry?
Peter is speaking of two states of existence, knowing the way that was handed to you and turning away from that given hand.
You will not accept the latter because of your OSAS theology but it is clearly there.
Denominations do not choose apostasy, individuals do. This is just a strawman, I will not bite.
"Probably can."? Which one is it?
Simply drivel, no one is making such a claim.
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The dog returning to the vomit and the sow to the mire means their natures were never changed.
No doubt the effects of attempting to live according to the commandments of God would have produced a noticeable exterior change, because it was not accompanied by an inward change, they eventually followed their true natures.
The Christian is given a new divine nature, and though they may struggle with the remnants of their old nature, they will endure to the end...not because they will do it, but the Spirit within who cannot fail will perform it.
He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.
He is both the author and finisher of our faiths.
No doubt the effects of attempting to live according to the commandments of God would have produced a noticeable exterior change, because it was not accompanied by an inward change, they eventually followed their true natures.
The Christian is given a new divine nature, and though they may struggle with the remnants of their old nature, they will endure to the end...not because they will do it, but the Spirit within who cannot fail will perform it.
He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.
He is both the author and finisher of our faiths.
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