Whom Did Christ Die For?

Wow - You opened a can of worms here. Especially, considering how few on this Christian Chat believe in the Doctrine of Election. Even fewer that will fight for "Limited Atonement". But the Gauntlet has been thrown down. While I am not going to argue this to death, I will give some of the support for this Doctrine.

It's strongest support comes from John 10:

First, The Shepherd separates His own from those that are not His own - which speaks of Election.
John 10:4 When he hath put forth all his own, he is going before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

In this way, Jesus clarifies His People from the people of unbelieving Judaism and of the world in general.

Now the religionist of Jesus' day didn't get it and they still don't.
John 10:6 This parable spoke Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spoke unto them.

Second, He confirms three times that He gives up His life for them:
-- John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
-- John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me,
John 10:15 even as the Father knows me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
-- John_10:17 Therefore doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.

To make sure there is no doubt about what He is talking about - He goes onto say later:

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father's name, these bear witness of me.
John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

At this point we see the typical reaction by religionist to this Doctrine when defended or proclaimed. In the above verses, Jesus was speaking of Salvation originating with the Father and that He was equal to the Father.
John 10:31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Additionally, it is spoken of in Romans chapter 5, which differentiates between those in Adam and those in Christ but that detailed discussion will have to wait for another time.

Consequently: "atonement is limited" in a practical sense. And Man, in and of himself is incapable of generating Biblical FAITH.

Word games

Enough that God my Father knows
That nothing this faith can dim.
He gives the very best to those
Who leave the choice with Him.

Hudson Taylor

It is unlimited in that it was purchased for everyone.

We all have to make a choice. God worked on me for many months. But I still had to make a choice. Paul had to make a choice on that road.. He could have said no. Just like you could have said no..

Thats why on judgment day the lost will have no excuse. Because they could have said yes. but chose freely to say no.

If God had his way everyone would be saved. But thank the heavens, He is not what satan says, and wants us all on a lease doing his whim.

That lie caused 1/3 of heaven to rebel. That same lie caused the fall of mankind..


God is not just out to save that which was lost. he is out to shut the mouths of the rebellion so their will never be a rebellion again.

In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will. Eph1:11

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Your argument is with Paul, not me. You said if God has his way, according to Paul he does

If it's God's desire for all to be saved isn't God's choice best.
Earnestly, I think if I told you I agreed with you, you would dissent.
You should be glad God chose to give me lots of kids that I may suffer long with you.

lol

No my argument is with you

God is willing that non should perish, He died for the world so that whoever in the world believes will never perish (Jesus words)

He also states it is will that whoever sees and believes will have eternal life and be raised.

Both are Gods will

We can not only claim one of them is his will and ignore the rest of his will

I study my biblical theology from recognized scholars, not people found on the Internet. So, am I the one trying to distort the truth of God?

The 1901 American Standard Version is described in Wikipedia thus: "It was often printed using lower quality paper and binding, and was perceived to be excessively literal. It never achieved wide popularity, apart from some Protestant seminaries." Being "literal" is one reason why it is an excellent study Bible that was used in Protestant seminaries. Hebrews 2:9 in the ASV reads as follows -

"But we behold him who hath been made a little lower than the angels, even Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God he should taste of death for every man." (Heb 2:9)

The word "man" is in italics in the ASV indicates a word added by translators that is not in the Greek. That makes it a matter of interpretation, which calls for paying attention to the context.

The New Greek/English Interlinear New Testament USB5 5th Edition Nestle-Aland 28th Edition, 2020c reads on the phrase "on behalf of all he might taste death". All what or who? Context answers that question in the next verse< Heb 2:10, KJV/ASV/NRSV - "many sons", NRSV "many children",

Thayer's Greek Lexicon - Defines the word πᾶς as all, every and the bold and italics indicates the basic meaning of the word.

The BDAG Greek-English Lexicon defines the word, "pert. to totality with focus on its individual components, each, every, any" and again the bold italics indicate the basic meaning. Again, "each, every, any" of what or who. Context in Hebrews tells us.

From the Baptist John Gill on this verse:

" the word "man" is not in the original text, it is only υπερ παντος, which may be taken either collectively, and be rendered "for the whole"; that is, the whole body, the church for whom Christ gave himself, and is the Saviour of; or distributively, and be translated, "for everyone"; for everyone of the sons God brings to glory, Heb 2:10 for everyone of the "brethren", whom Christ sanctifies, and he is not ashamed to own, and to whom he declares the name of God, Heb 2:11 for everyone of the members of the "church", in the midst of which he sung praise, Heb 2:12 for every one of the "children" God has given him, and for whose sake he took part of flesh and blood, Heb 2:13 and for everyone of the "seed" of Abraham, in a spiritual sense, whose nature he assumed, Heb 2:16.

It looks to me as you are the one "who is trying to DISTORT THE TRUTH." John Gill is still read and respected 300 years after he wrote. I wonder how many of today's self-appointed authorities will be read 300 years from now?

So Paul was wrong?

Gods choice is best
He states he is a god of love.

A person who loves his children will want and desire what is best for them

But a loving father will not FORCE his will on his children. He will offer assistance, and offer choices. But the child must make a decision.

The father may not like it, but its is what makes him a loving father

What would I care if you suffered anything with me? What kind of proud statement is that?

All I am doing is stating my belief and WHY..

thats what people that discuss the word do.

Did I say he was wrong?

did you read what I wrote???

Paul said God works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will. Is Paul correct or not?

It is his will that whoever sees and believes will never die. is this true?

It is also his will that whoever does not believe is condemned. Is this not his will?

It is also his will that he wishes no one should perish, but all would come to salvation. Is this not true also.

Everyone likes to proclaim Gods sovereignty, But they forget a soverign God can do whatever he wants. If he wants us to recieve his gift freely, or reject it freely. That that is his right is it not?

So you are going to duck answering the question. I will play by your rules then and not respond to yours

One could add that no one can come to Christ-and believe on him unless the Father draws him. But as you dont get your questions answered, why play along with a one sided debate

Duck??
lol
I did not know not givin gyou the answer you wanted to hear was ducking

Here I will prove my point.

Jesus willed jerusalem to repent. and recieve him, But he did not force it on them, He wanted them to chose freely

But they were not willing

Matthew 23:37

Jesus Laments over Jerusalem
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

God has willed many things.. He even repented making man and flooded the earth..