Doctrine of Unconditional Election

In context, this is aisrael God’s elect people elected as the seed of the Messiah. Paul had a heart to see them saved.

Not! Can a dead person choose?

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Yup exactly....... A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. ...Paul Simon

Free gift - No choice

My Friend you have packed a lot into 2 paragraphs .

The verses above show you believe God created an elect and others for destruction. The Word says what it says Those verses are the Word of God not mine.
So where would the chosen Jews stand?
Doubt my words will be clear but i will try... Things changed with the Birth Death and Resurrection of our Lord.
The old covenant had been broken by man. Do we really need more evidence then the lives of the disciples?
Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Jew are not an enemy some are Christians saved by Grace.

He is a just God
He can only be Godly
I totally agree. While thinking back some years to the Sunday School lessons . God was just when Jericho collapsed. God was just when creepy Hearod murdered all the 2 year old boys. He was just when the death angel of the passover went through Egypt. Speaking of Egypt , Moses was saved from the same kind of death Hearod used. Yes He is just .
Wrote this a couple hours ago ... had to get dinner on the table... hope to spend time here tomorrow .....

Disagree. Notice in the below, that God tells the Jews, not that He would take earthly Israel back, but instead that He would
take Jews "one of a city", "two of a family". By that, He is symbolically informing that only Jews that were elected to salvation would return to hm, not that earthly Israel would to Him nor be remarried to Him. Given as God cannot have two wives, and He became married to spiritual Israel, a divorced earthly Israel cannot again become His wife. So, earthly Israel has been given a final divorce decree from which as a nation, there is no return.
Don't forget there are two Israels, and sometimes it is difficult to immediately distinguish which one is in view if we're not considering that as a possibility - one can easily be mistaken for the other.


[Jer 3:11-12, 14-15 KJV]
11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; [and] I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I [am] merciful, saith the LORD, [and] I will not keep [anger] for ever. ...
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.



"Would you bear with me for a question or two? So as a dispy how did you believe God related to Israel/ the Jews. How does that differ from your belief now?"

The Jews of Moses's time, as a nation, rejected the gospel of Christ because most had not been given faith and were not of those chosen to be saved (as it happens today too) - they trusted in their own righteousness. That is why, I believe, that God tells us in the below that He purposefully gave to them laws and statutes whereby they should not live. Just my opinion, but because of their rejection of Christ, the die was cast as to where they would end-up (as with all of the unsaved)- it being inevitable even though God had given them frequent warnings and opportunities before He divorced them - but the responsibility for that was upon them. Everyone saved is saved(or not) the same way including the OT/NT Jews - salvation is only given as a gift to some, the others are under judgement -there is no middle ground. Scary, huh?

[Eze 20:24-25 KJV]
24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes [that were] not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

"The verses above show you believe God created an elect and others for destruction. So where would the chosen Jews stand?"

First, I'm not sure that I believe that God created anyone for destruction. I believe that judgment came about by Adam, Eve, and Satan, not by God. However, I do believe that God in His mercy and grace had chosen from before the before foundation of the world only certain people whom He intended to save- Jews included - even though they (and we) are completely underserving of it. Since no one deserves it, it is then rightly His prerogative to bequeath to it whomever He so chose for it, which is what He did.
Regarding the Jews, I believe they stand on exactly the same spiritual ground as everyone else does - they were either individually chosen as elect, or they were not - they are either justified by Christ or they're not - no middle ground. I do not believe that a national identity is any factor in it.

"The OT says they are the apple of His eye"

The apple of His eye is the elect. Why? Because God sees them as though He were seeing Christ.

"The Bible says salvation is to the Jew first. We were grafted in."

Certain Jews were the first to become saved/born again(the early rain). Other Jews and non-Jews came afterwards (the latter rain), but the Jews came first. Nevertheless, as it is for one, so it is for the other.

"So you say the elect are assured of salvation, whether they slip and fail or not they "always saved". Would that not even be more so to the Jews whom the covenants were made? How can the elect be always in Gods grace and the chosen Jews outside His grace."

What do you mean by "chosen Jews" ? Do you mean the elect Jews or somehow the Jews of earthly Israel - they can be different sets of Jews? No one is saved because of any earthly affiliation - Israel or otherwise. It is solely dependent upon whether or not God had chosen the individual for salvation.
Slipping and falling has no effect or impact upon one's salvation if of the elect - whether Jews or otherwise - all are under God's grace. Salvation is solely by what Christ achieved, not by what a person might achieve or not.

"Hosea in the end is calling Israel to repent and return to God. Once you divorce a spouse do you keep calling them to return? No, you don't, and you certainly don't make a new covenant with them."

Don't know which verses you have in mind, but generally, the verses having to do with blessing are intended for
spiritual Isarel; the verses having to do with bad things, judgements, etc, for earthly Israel, maybe even for all of the non-elect.
I haven't read that book in quite a while, so it's difficult for me to recall precise details right now.

So, it's kind of late for me and being tired I may not have written everything as I should have.
Therefore, I'll reread maybe tomorrow hopefully with a fresh brain, but might find things that I'll need to revise.

Ahh! Good point! Why pray, or preach or evangelize? If half of us are already secure and the other half can never come why even have a church? Why read the Bible? Why tell anyone that God can forgive your sin? Maybe He won't or can't. We send missions overseas, to what purpose? A waste of time, money and effort. God already choose the outcome.

I'll get back to you on this one. The Mexican food gave me weird dreams all night. Need to splash water on my face and wake up here.

Question…do you believe in prayer? Does prayer help in any situation or has God already chosen the outcome?

Jer. 31 speaks of a time when the Jews will be restored. Romans 11 says they can be grafted in again if they do not persist in unbelief. The Bible says the Jews will mourn when the recognize the Messiah after their blindness is lifted. The Gentiles and Jews that have become Christians already know Him. But there is a remnant...








But in each of those situations God was not the cause. That was people making choices to do wrong. What did we have for supper? Hubby and I went to Mexican and it's still on repeat if you get my drift. When will I ever learn?

If a dead person can't choose the right, then they can't choose to do wrong. When's the last time you saw a dead man charged for murder he committed when dead?

Pray for that which is in accordance with His will, not ours "thy will be done".

Do you ever pray for matters that you're not sure it's God's will or not? Do you believe prayer works?

Pray that God's will be done - that is the prayer - it is good in any situation.
However, we are free to pray for anything we so choose to, but we are told they
will be answered only as they are in accordance with His will.

Do you ever pray for matters that you're not sure it's God's will or not? Do you believe prayer works?

In My name or in Jesus name means in accordance with the will of God.
Prayer isn't so God will bend to our will but that He will reveal to us His will.

In My name or in Jesus name means in accordance with the will of God.
Prayer isn't so God will bend to our will but that He will reveal to us His will.

I battled cancer for several years going through treatment after treatment. Many prayed on my behalf. I believe prayer works. In the natural course of history, I may have died, but because people were crying out to God on my behalf, God stepped in and brought me healing.

When they prayed, did they say to God, do this or else? Or did they pray, not our will but your will be done?
Even unto death, Jesus asked for relief, but ended His prayer...not My will, but Thine be done.

Ask David, Hezekiah, and Nineveh. Maybe the natural course of history was going to play out and I was going to die, but because people cried out on my behalf, God kept me alive. God's will is outlined in scripture. Yes, we should pray that. But what about things that are not in scripture?