Is Michael Another Name For Jesus?

ItsAdventageous · Jan 26, 2023

[4] Irenaeus (AD early 2nd century – c. AD 202), was a Bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, then a part of the Roman Empire (now Lyon, France) and considered by some to be an early church father, as well as being an apologist and theologian.

[Latin] Sancti Irenaei, Episcopi Lugdunensis, Libros quinque adversus haereses, textu Graeco in locis nonnullis locupletato, versione Latina cum codicibus claramontano ac arundeliano denuo collata, praemissa de placitis gnosticorum prolusione, fragmento necnon Graece, Syriace, Armeniace, commentatione perpetua et indicibus variis. W. Wigan Harvey, S.T.B. collegii regalis olim soctus. Tom. II. Cantabrigiae, Typis Academicis. 1857.

"... [Page 21] Vere igitur cum Pater sit Dominus, et Filius vere sit Dominus, merito Spiritus sanctus Domini appellatione signavit eos. Et iterum in eversione Sodomitarum Scriptura ait: Et pluit Dominus super Sodomam et Gomorrham ignem et sulfur a Domino de coelo. Filium enim hic significat, qui et Abrahae collocutus sit, a Patre accepisse 3 potestatem judicandi Sodomitas propter iniquitatem eorum. ..." [Page 21] - https://archive.org/stream/sanctiirenaeiep00harvgoog#page/n31/mode/1up

[English] Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons: Against Heresies Book III, Chapter 6:

"... [Page 145] Since, therefore, the Father is truly Lord, and the Son truly Lord, the Holy Spirit has fitly designated them by the title of Lord. And again, referring to the destruction of the Sodomites, the Scripture says, "Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven." Genesis 19:24 For it here points out that the Son, who had also been talking with Abraham, had received power to judge the Sodomites for their wickedness. ..." [Page 145] - https://archive.org/stream/SaintIrenaeusAgainstHeresiesComplete/Saint Irenaeus Against Heresies Complete#page/n145/mode/1up

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103306.htm

[Latin]

"... [Page 22] 2. Nemo igitur alius, quemadmodum praedixi, Deus nominatur, aut Dominue appellatur, nisi qui est omnium Deus et Dominus, qui et Moysi dixit: Ego sum, qui sum. Et sic dices filiis Israel: Qui est, misit me ad vos: et hujus Filius Jesus Christus Dominus noster, qui filios Dei facit credentes in nomen suum. Et iterum, loquente Filio ad Moysen: Descendi, inquit, [Page 22-23] eripere populum hunc. Ipse est enim qui descendit, et ascendit propter salutem hominum. ..." [Page 22-23] - https://archive.org/stream/sanctiirenaeiep00harvgoog#page/n32/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/sanctiirenaeiep00harvgoog#page/n33/mode/1up

[English]

“... [Page 145] 2. Wherefore, as I have already stated, no other is named as God, or is called Lord, except Him who is God and Lord of all, who also said to Moses, "I AM THAT I AM. And thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: He who is, hath sent me unto you;" and His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who makes those that believe in His name the sons of God. And again, when the Son speaks to Moses, He says, "I am come down to deliver this people." For it is He who descended and ascended for the salvation of men. ...” [Page 145] - https://archive.org/stream/SaintIrenaeusAgainstHeresiesComplete/Saint Irenaeus Against Heresies Complete#page/n145/mode/1up

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103306.htm

[Latin] Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons: Against Heresies Latin: Book IV, Chapter XX [same as [English] Book IV, Chapter X]:

"... [Page 172] Si enim crederetis Moysi, crederetis et mihi: de me enim ille scripsit; scilicet quod inseminatus est ubique in Scripturis ejus Filius Dei; aliquando quidem cum Abraham loquens, cum eodem comesurus: aliquando cum Noe, dans ei mensuras: aliquando [Page 172-173] autem quaerens Adam: aliquando autem Sodomitis inducens judicium: et rursus cum videtur, et in viam dirigit Jacob: et de rubo loquitur cum Moyse. Et non est numerum dicere in quibus a Moyse ostenditur Filius Dei ..." [Pages 172-173] - https://archive.org/stream/sanctiirenaeiep00harvgoog#page/n182/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/sanctiirenaeiep00harvgoog#page/n183/mode/1up

[English] Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons: Against Heresies [English] Book IV, Chapter X [same as Latin: Book IV, Chapter XX]:

“... [page 213] 1. ... "For if ye had believed Moses, ye would also have believed Me; for he wrote of Me;" [saying this,] no doubt, because the Son of God is implanted everywhere throughout his writings: at one time, indeed, speaking with Abraham, when about to eat with him; at another time with Noah, giving to him the dimensions [of the ark]; at another; inquiring after Adam; at another, bringing down judgment upon the Sodomites; and again, when He becomes visible, and directs Jacob on his journey, and speaks with Moses from the bush. And it would be endless to recount [the occasions] upon which the Son of God is shown forth by Moses. ...” [Page 213] - https://archive.org/stream/SaintIrenaeusAgainstHeresiesComplete/Saint Irenaeus Against Heresies Complete#page/n213/mode/1up

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103410.htm

[Latin] Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons: Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter V, Section II

"... [Page 342] Hic est autem Filius Dei, quemadmodum Scriptura ait dixisse Nabuchodonozor regem: Nonne tres viros misimus in caminum? et ecce ego video quatuor deambulantes in medio ignis, et quartus similis est Filio Dei. ..." [Page 342] - https://archive.org/stream/sanctiirenaeiep00harvgoog#page/n342/mode/1up

[English] Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons: Against Heresies. Book V, Chapter V, Section II

“... [Page 287] Now this is the Son of God, as the Scripture represents Nebuchadnezzar the king as having said, Did not we cast three men bound into the furnace? And, lo, I do see four walking in the midst of the fire, and the fourth is like the Son of God. ..." [Page 287] - https://archive.org/stream/SaintIrenaeusAgainstHeresiesComplete/Saint Irenaeus Against Heresies Complete#page/n287/mode/1up

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103505.htm

ItsAdventageous · Jan 26, 2023

TheLearner said:

[5] Titus Flavius Clemens (Greek: Κλήμης ὁ Ἀλεξανδρεύς; c. 150 – c. 215), known as Clement of Alexandria to distinguish him from the earlier Clement of Rome, was a Christian theologian who taught at the Catechetical School of Alexandria.

[Greek] Clementis Alexandrini Opera, ex Recensione Gulielmi Dindorfii; Vol. I. Protrepticus. Paedagogus. Oronii, e typographeo clarendoniano. 1869.

"... [Page 144] Τὸν κύριον αὐτὸν ὀνομάζει παιδίον, τοûτο διὰ Ἡσαΐου θεσπίζον τὸ πνεûμα "ἰδοὺ παιδίον ἐγεννήθη ἡμîν, υἱὸς καὶ ἐδόθη ἡμîν, οὗ ἡ ἀρχὴ ἐπὶ τοû ὤμου αὐτοû, καὶ ἐκλήθη τὸ ὄnoma αὐτοû μεγάλης βουλῆς ἄγγελος." ..." [Page 144] - https://archive.org/stream/clementisalexand01clem#page/144/mode/1up

[English] Ante-Nicene Christian Library, A Collection of all the works of the fathers of the Christian Church, prior to the Council of Nicea, edited by the Rev. Alexander Roberts, D.D., author of 'Discussions on the Gospels," etc.; and James Donaldson, LL.D., author of 'A critical history of Christian literature and doctrine, from the death of the Apostles to the Nicene Council,' and rector of the Royal High School, Edinburgh. The First Four Volumes: -- The Apostolic Fathers, in One Volume; Justin Martyr and Athenagoras, in One Volume; Tatian, Theophilus, and the Clementine Recognitions, in One Volume; and Clement of Alexandria, Volume First, are now ready.

The Writings Of Clement Of Alexandria, The Instructor, Book I, Chapter V; All Who Walk According To Truth Are Children of God.

"... [Page 130] The Spirit calls the Lord Himself a child, thus prophesying by Esaias: "Lo, to us a child has been born, to us a son has been given, on whose own shoulder the government shall be; and His name has been called the Angel of great Counsel." ..." [Page 130 ] - https://archive.org/stream/writingsofclemen01clem#page/130/mode/1up

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02091.htm

ItsAdventageous · Jan 26, 2023

TheLearner said:

[6] Justin Martyr, also known as Saint Justin (c. AD 100 – AD 165), was an early Christian apologist, and is regarded as the foremost interpreter of the theory of the Logos in the 2nd century.[2] He was martyred, alongside some of his students, and is considered a saint by the Roman Catholic Church,[3] the Anglican Church,[4] and the Eastern Orthodox Church.[5] – Wikipedia

Chapter LXIII.[63] - How God Appeared to Moses.

Justinus' des Philosphen und Martyrers Apologien von P. Joannes Maria Pfattisch O.S.B. Zweite Auflage von P. Justus Schnurrer O.S.B. Oberstudiendirektor des Gymnasiums in Ettal; Text. Munster i. W. Verlag der Aschendorffschen Verlagsbuchhandlung. 1933.

[Greek]

"... [Page 97; internally page 69] 62. καὶ τὸ λουτρὸν δὴ τοῦτο ἁκούσαντες οἱ δαίμονες διὰ τοῦ προφήτου κεκηρυγμένον ἐνήργησαν καὶ ῥαντίζειν ἑαυτοὺς τοὺς εἰς τὰ ἱερὰ αὐτῶν ἐπιβαίνοντας καὶ προσιέναι αὐτοῖς μέλλοντας, λοιβὰς καὶ κνίσας ἀποτελοῦντας· τέλεον δὲ καὶ λούεσθαι ἐπιόντας πρὶν ἐλθεῖν ἐπὶ τὰ ιερά, ἔνθα ἵδρυνται, ἐνεργοῦσι. καὶ γὰρ τὸ ὑπολύεσθαι ἐπιβαίνοντας τοῖς ἱεροῖς καὶ τοῖς αὐτοῖς τοὺς θρησκεύοντας κελεύεσθαι ὑπὸ τῶν ἱερατευόντων ἐκ τῶν συμβάντων Μωσεῖ τῷ εἰρημένῳ προφήτῃ μαθόντες οἱ δαίμονες ἐμιμήσαντο. κατ᾿ ἐκεῖνο γὰρ τοῦ καιροῦ, ὅτε Μωσῆς ἐκελεύσθη κατελθὼν εἰς Αἴγυπτον ἐξαγαγεῖν τὸν ἐκεῖ λαὸν τῶν Ἰσραηλιτῶν, ποιμαίνοντος αὐτοῦ ἐν τῇ Ἀῤῥαβικῇ γῇ πρόβατα τοῦ πρὸς μητρὸς θείου, ἐν ἰδέᾳ πυρὸς ἐκ βάτου προσωμίλησεν αὐτῷ ὁ ἡμέτερος Χρήστὸς καὶ εἶπεν· "Ὑπό- [Page 97-98; internally Page 69-70] λυσαι τὰ ὑποδήματά σου καὶ προσελθὼν ἄκουσον." ὁ δὲ ὑπολυσάμενος καὶ προσελθὼν ἀκήκοε κατελθεῖν εἰς Αἴγυπτον καὶ ἐξαγάγεῖν τὸν ἐκεῖ λαὸν τῶν Ἰσραηλιτῶν καὶ δύναμιν ἰσχυρὰν ἔλαβε παρὰ τοῦ λαλήσαντος αὐτῷ ἐν ἰδέᾳ πυρὸς Χρἰστοῦ καὶ κατελθὼν ἐξήγαγε τὸν λαὸν ποιήσας μεγάλα καὶ θαυμάσια, ἃ εἰ βούλεσθε μαθεῖν, ἐκ τῶν συγγραμμάτων ἐκείνου ἀκριβῶς μαθήσεσθε.

63. Ἰουδαῖοι δὲ πάντες καὶ νῦν διδάσκουσι τὸν ἀνωνόμαστον θεὸν λελαληκέναι τῷ Μωσεῖ. ὅθεν τὸ προφητικὸν πνεῦμα διὰ Ἡσαΐου τοῦ προμεμηνυμένου προφήτου ἐλέγχον αὐτούς, ὡς προεγράψαμεν, εἶπεν· "Ἔγνω βοῦς τὸν κτησάμενον καὶ ὄνος τὴν φάτνην τοῦ κυρίου αὐτοῦ, Ἰσραὴλ δέ με οὐκ ἔγνω καὶ ὁ λαός με οὐ συνῆκε." καὶ Ἰησοῦς δὲ ὁ Χριστός ὄτι οὐκ ἔγνωσαν Ἰουδαῖοι τί πατὴρ καὶ τί υἱός, ὁμοίως ἐλέγχων αῦτοὺς καὶ αὺτὸς εἶπεν· "Οὐδεὶς ἔγνω τὸν πατέρα εἰ μὴ ὁ υἱὸς οὐδὲ τὸν υἱὸν εἰ μὴ ὁ πατὴρ καὶ οἷς ἂν ἀποκαλύψῃ ὁ υἱός." ὁ λόγος δὲ τοῦ θεοῦ ἐστιν ὁ υἱός αὐτοῦ, ὡς προέφημεν. καὶ ἄγγελος δὲ καλεῖται καὶ ἀπόστολος· αὐτὸς γὰρ ἀπαγγέλλει ὅσα δεῖ γνωσθῆναι, καὶ ἀποστέλλεται, μηνύσων, ὅσα ἀγγέλλεται, ὡς καὶ αὐτὸς ὁ κύρίος ἡμῶν εἶπεν· "Ὁ ἐμοῦ ἀκούων ἀκούει τοῦ ἀποστείλαντός με." καὶ ἐκ τῶν τοῦ Μωσέως δὲ συγγραμμάτων φανερὸν τοῦτο γενήσεται. Λέλεκται δὲ ἐν αὐτοῖς οὕτως· "καὶ ἐλάλησε Μωσεῖ ἄγ- [Page 98-99; internally Page 70-71] γελος θεοῦ ἐν φλογί πυρὸς ἐκ τῆς βάτου καὶ εἶπεν· Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν, θεός Ἀβραάμ, θεός Ἰσαάκ, θεός Ἰακώβ, ὁ θεός τῶν πατέρων σου. Κάτελθε εἰς Αἴγυπτον καὶ ἐξάγαγε τὸν λαόν μου." Τὰ δ' ἐπόμενα ἐξ ἐκείνων βουλόμενοι μαθεῖν δύνασθε· οὐ γὰρ δυνατὸν ἐν τούτοις ἀναγράψαι πάντα. ἀλλ' εἰς ἀπόδειξιν γεγόνάσιν οἵδε οἱ λόγοι, ὅτι υἱὸς θεοῦ καὶ ἀπόστολος Ἰησοῦς ὁ Χριστός ἐστι, πρότερον λόγος ὢν καὶ ἐν ἱδέᾳ πυρὸς ποτὲ φανείς, ποτὲ δὲ καὶ ἐν εἰκόνι ἀσωμάτων· νῦν δὲ διὰ θελήματος θεοῦ ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀνθρωπείου γένους ἄνθρωπος γενόμενος ὑπέμεινε καὶ παθεῖν, ὅσα αὐτὸν ἐνήργησαν οἱ δαίμονες διατεθῆναι ὑπὸ τῶν ἀνοήτων Ἰουδαίων. Οἵτινες ἔχοντες ῥητῶς εἰρημένων ἐν τοῖς Μωσέως συντάγμασι· "καὶ ἐλάλησεν ἄγγελος τοῦ θεοῦ τῷ Μωσεῖ ἐν πυρί φλογὸς ἐν βάτῳ καὶ εἶπεν· Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν, ὁ θεὸς Ἀβραὰμ καὶ ὁ θεὸς Ἰσαὰκ καὶ ὁ θεός Ἰακώβ," τὸν τῶν ὅλων πατέρα καὶ δημιουργον τὸν ταῦτα εἰπόντα λέγουσιν εἶναι. ὅθεν καὶ τὸ προφητικὸν πνεῦμα ἐλέγχον αὐτοὺς εἶπεν. "Ἰσραὴλ δέ με οὐκ ἔγνω καὶ ὁ λαός με οὐ συνῆχε." καὶ πάλιν ὁ Ἰησοῦς, ὡς ἐδηλώσαμεν, παρ' αὐτοῖς ὢν εἶπεν· "Οὐδεὶς ἔγνω τὸν πατέρα εἰ μὴ ὁ υἱὸς οὐδὲ τὸν υἱὸν εἰ μὴ ὁ πατὴρ καὶ οἷς ἂν ὁ υἱὸς ἀποκαλύψῃ." Ἰουδαῖοι οὖν ἡγησάμενοι ἀεὶ τὸν πατέρα τῶν ὅλων λελαληκέναι τῷ Μωσεῖ, τοῦ λαλήσαντος αὐτῷ ὄντος υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ, ὃς καὶ ἄγγελος καὶ ἀπόστολος κέκληται, δικαὶως ἐλέγχονται καὶ διὰ τοῦ προφητικοῦ πνεύματος καὶ δἰ [Page 99-100; internally Page 71-72] αὐτοῦ τοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὡς οὔτε τὸν πατέρα οὔτε τὸν υἱὸν ἔγνωσαν. Οἱ γὰρ τὸν υἱὸν πατέρα φάσκοντες εἶναι ἐλέγχονται μήτε τὸν πατέρα ἐπιστάμενοι, μηθ' ὅτι ἐστὶν υἱὸς τῷ πατρί τῶν ὅλων γινώσκοντες· ὃς λόγος καὶ πρωτότοκος ὢν τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ θεός ὑπάρχει. καὶ πρότερον διὰ τῆς τοῦ πυρός μορφῆς καὶ εἰκόνος ἀσωμάτου τῷ Μωσεῖ καὶ τοῖς ἑτέροις προφήταις ἐφάνη· ..." [Pages 97-100; internally Pages 69-72] - https://archive.org/stream/MN41580uc...e/n97/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/MN41580ucmf 1#page/n98/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/MN41580ucmf 1#page/n99/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/MN41580ucmf 1#page/n100/mode/1up

ItsAdventageous · Jan 26, 2023

TheLearner said:

[6, continued, Justin Martyr]

The First Apology of Justin Martyr addressed to the Emperor Antoninus Pius, prefaced by some account of the writings and opinions of Justin Martyr, by John Kaye, formerly Lord Bishop of Lincoln. Edinburgh, John Grant. 1912.

[English]

"... [Page 50; Introduction by John Kaye] With reference to the part borne by him in conducting the gospel economy, He is styled, as we have already seen, the Minister, 1 and the Angel or Messenger of God. 2 …

... [Page 50, notation 2, by John Kaye] 2 καὶ ἄγγελος καλεῖται καὶ ἀπόστολος· αὐτὸς γὰρ ἀπαγγέλλει ὅσα δεῖ γνωσθῆναι, καὶ ἀποστέλλεται μηνύσων ὅσα ἀγγέλλεται. Apol. I. p. 95D (79). See p. 60 A (15). Dial. pp. 275 C, 276 D, 283 C, D. μεγάλης βουλῆς ἄγγελον, pp. 301 C, 321 A, 355 B, 356 C. In p. 251 B, we find an enumeration of the names given to Christ in Scripture. Βασιλεὺς, ἱερεὺς, θεὸς, κύριος, ἄγγελος, ἄνθρωπος, ἀρχίστράτηγος, λίθος, παιδίον. See also pp. 313 C, 327 C, 355 B. αἰώνιος ἡμῖν νόμος καὶ τελευταῖος ὁ χριστὸς ἐδόθη, pp. 228 B, 242 A, 261 C, 271 C, 346 C. ..." [Page 50, notation 2, by John Kaye] - https://archive.org/stream/firstapologyofju00justuoft#page/n61/mode/1up

"... [Page 77] LXXXI ... [Page 77-78] ... And whereas their adorers are commanded by priests to put off their shoes before they presume to enter the temples [Page 78-79] to worship these demons, 1 this is evidently done to mimic what they found commanded the prophet Moses; for while Moses was feeding the sheep of his father-in-law in Arabia, he was commanded to go down into Egypt, and to bring out the people of Israel; and our Christ talked with him out of the bush in the appearance of fire, and said, "Put off thy shoes, and come and hear" (Ex. III. 5). And accordingly he put off his shoes, and went and heard that he was to go down into Egypt, and conduct the Israelites from thence; and being appointed with prodigious power by Christ Who conversed with him out of the bush of fire, he went and brought the people out, doing great and astonishing actions; the particulars of which, if you have a mind to it, you may see in his own writings.

LXXXII. But all the modern Jews teach that it was the unnameable God who thus conversed with Moses, upon which account the prophetic Spirit, by the mouth of the prophet Isaiah, reprehends them in these words already quoted, "The ox knoweth the owner, and the ass his master's crib; but Israel doth not know me, My people hath not understood me" (Isa. I. 3). And because the Jews were ignorant what the Father and the Son were, Jesus Christ Himself thus corrects them, "No man knoweth the Father but the Son, nor the Son, but them to whom the Son will reveal Him" (Matt. XI. 27). But as I have said, the Logos of God is His Son, and is also called Angel and Apostle; for He Himself did deliver; [Page 79-80] as an angel or messenger, 1 what the world was to know, and acted as an apostle, as one sent to interpret the divine will, as our Lord Himself has testified, "He that heareth me, heareth Him that sent me" (Matt. X. 40). The same is also evident from the Mosaic writings, where we have these words, "And the angel of God spake unto Moses in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush, and said, I Am that I Am, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of your fathers; go down into Egypt, and bring up My people from thence" (Ex. III. 2, 14, 15). If you are desirous of knowing what follows, I must refer you to the Scriptures themselves, for it is not possible to transcribe all into a discourse of this nature.

LXXXIII. But these words were spoken to demonstrate the Son of God and Apostle to be our Jesus Christ, who is the pre-existing Logos; Who appeared sometimes in the form of fire, sometimes in the likeness of angels, and in these last days was made man by the will of God for the salvation of mankind, and was contented to suffer what the devils could inflict upon him by the infatuated Jews; who, notwithstanding they have these express words in the writings of Moses, "And the angel of the Lord spake with Moses in a flame of fire out of the bush, and said, I Am that I Am, the Self-existent, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob;" notwithstanding this, I say, they affirm these words to be spoken by God the Father and Maker of all things. For which oversight the prophetic Spirit thus charges them, "Israel hath not known me, My people have not understood me;" and as I have said, Jesus taxed them again for the same thing while He was amongst them, "No man hath known the [Page 80-81]

[[Page 80 notation 1, by John Kaye] 1 Christ is called the Angel (Exod. III. 2), but nowhere the Apostle (as Dr. Grabe observes), but in the Epistle to the Hebrews, III. I, from whence he justly concludes that this Epistle was known to, and approved by, Justin Martyr. [end Page 80 notation 1, by John Kaye]]

[Page 81] Father but the Son, nor the Son, but them to Whom the Son will reveal Him." The Jews therefore, for maintaining that it was the Father of the universe Who had the conference with Moses, when it was the very Son of God Who had it, and Who is styled both Angel and Apostle, are justly accused by the prophetic Spirit, and Christ Himself, for knowing neither the Father nor the Son; for they who affirm the Son to be the Father are guilty of not knowing the Father, and likewise of being ignorant that the Father of the universe has a Son, Who being the Logos and First-begotten of God is God. 1 And He it is Who heretofore appeared to Moses and the rest of the prophets, sometimes in fire and sometimes in the form of angels ..." [Pages 77-81] - https://archive.org/stream/firstapologyofju00justuoft#page/77/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/firstapologyofju00justuoft#page/78/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/firstapologyofju00justuoft#page/79/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/firstapologyofju00justuoft#page/80/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/firstapologyofju00justuoft#page/81/mode/1up

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.toc.html

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho:

S. Justini, Philosophi et Martyris cum Tryphone Judaeo Dialogus. Pars Altera, colloquium Secundi Diei Continens. edited, with a corrected text and English Introduction and Notes, by the Rev. W. Trollope, M.A. Pembroke College, Cambridge. Cambridge: printed by and for J. Hall, opposite the Pitt Press; and G. Bell, 186, Fleet Street, London. 1847.

[Greek]

"... CXIII. [Page 99; internally Page 88] ... Ὅτι γάρ Ἰησοῦς ἦν ὁ Μωσεῖ καὶ τῷ Ἀβραὰμ καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις ἁπλῶς πατριάρχαις φανεὶς καὶ ὁμιλήσας, τῷ τοῦ πατρὸς θελήματι ὑπηρετῶν, ἀπέδειξα· ὃς ..." [Page 99; internally Page 88] - https://archive.org/stream/sjustiniphilosop00justuoft#page/n99/mode/1up

[English] Ante-Nicene Christian Library: Translations of the Writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325. Edited by the Rev. Alexander Roberts, D.D., and James Donaldson, LL.D. Vol. II. Justin Martyr And Athenagoras. Edinburgh: T. And T. Clark, 38, George Street. 1847.

" ... [Page 240] Chap. CXIII. -- Joshua was a figure of Christ. … [Page 241] For I have proved that it was Jesus who appeared to and conversed with Moses, and Abraham, and all the other patriarchs without exception, ministering to the will of the Father ..." [Pages 240-241] - http://books.google.com/books?id=mYBPAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01284.htm

ItsAdventageous · Jan 26, 2023

TheLearner said:

[6, continued again, Justin Martyr]

Furthermore, Justin Martyr in Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 56 also proves that one of the three Heavenly beings that came down to speak with Abraham & Sarah, is both “Lord”, “God” and “who is also called an Angel” [being the Son, the messenger of the Father],

“... one of those three is God, and is called Angel, because, as I already said, He brings messages to those to whom God the Maker of all things wishes [messages to be brought], then in regard to Him who appeared to Abraham on earth in human form in like manner as the two angels who came with Him, and who was God even before the creation of the world ...” and also says,

“... He is the Lord who received commission from the Lord who [remains] in the heavens, i.e., the Maker of all things, to inflict upon Sodom and Gomorrha the [judgments] which the Scripture describes in these terms: 'The Lord rained down upon Sodom and Gomorrha sulphur and fire from the Lord out of heaven.'” in Chapter 56 - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01285.htm

Again Justin Martyr says in Chapter 58,

“... It is again written by Moses, my brethren, that He who is called God and appeared to the patriarchs is called both Angel and Lord, in order that from this you may understand Him to be minister to the Father of all things ...” in Chapter 58 - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01285.htm

Again Justin Martyr says in Chapter 59,

“Permit me, further, to show you from the book of Exodus how this same One, who is both Angel, and God, and Lord, and man, and who appeared in human form to Abraham and Isaac, appeared in a flame of fire from the bush, and conversed with Moses. ...” in Chapter 59 - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01285.htm

Again Justin Martyr says in Chapter 61,

“... now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father's will …" in Chapter 61 - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01285.htm

Again Justin Martyr says in Chapter 126,

“Chapter 126. The various names of Christ according to both natures. It is shown that He is God, and appeared to the patriarchs.

But if you knew, Trypho, who He is that is called at one time the Angel of great counsel, and a Man by Ezekiel, and like the Son of man by Daniel, and a Child by Isaiah, and Christ and God to be worshipped by David, and Christ and a Stone by many, and Wisdom by Solomon, and Joseph and Judah and a Star by Moses, and the East by Zechariah, and the Suffering One and Jacob and Israel by Isaiah again, and a Rod, and Flower, and Corner-Stone, and Son of God, you would not have blasphemed Him who has now come, and been born, and suffered, and ascended to heaven; who shall also come again, and then your twelve tribes shall mourn. For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God. For Moses says somewhere in Exodus the following: 'The Lord spoke to Moses, and said to him, I am the Lord, and I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, being their God; and my name I revealed not to them, and I established my covenant with them.' And thus again he says, 'A man wrestled with Jacob,' and asserts it was God; narrating that Jacob said, 'I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.' And it is recorded that he called the place where He wrestled with him, appeared to and blessed him, the Face of God (Peniel). And Moses says that God appeared also to Abraham near the oak in Mamre, when he was sitting at the door of his tent at mid-day. Then he goes on to say: 'And he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, three men stood before him; and when he saw them, he ran to meet them.' Genesis 18:2 After a little, one of them promises a son to Abraham: 'Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, and I am old? Is anything impossible with God? At the time appointed I will return, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son. And they went away from Abraham.' Again he speaks of them thus: 'And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom.' Genesis 18:16 Then to Abraham He who was and is again speaks: 'I will not hide from Abraham, my servant, what I intend to do.' Genesis 18:17

And what follows in the writings of Moses I quoted and explained:

From which I have demonstrated that He who is described as God appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, and the other patriarchs, was appointed under the authority of the Father and Lord, and ministers to His will.

Then I went on to say what I had not said before:

And so, when the people desired to eat flesh, and Moses had lost faith in Him, who also there is called the Angel, and who promised that God would give them to satiety, He who is both God and the Angel, sent by the Father, is described as saying and doing these things. For thus the Scripture says: 'And the Lord said to Moses, Will the Lord's hand not be sufficient? You shall know now whether my word shall conceal you or not.' Numbers 11:23 And again, in other words, it thus says: 'But the Lord spoke unto me, You shall not go over this Jordan: the Lord your God, who goes before your face, He shall cut off the nations.'..." - in Chapter 126 - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01289.htm

Again Justin Martyr says in Chapter 127,

“... Christ, but [saw] Him who was according to His will His Son, being God, and the Angel because He ministered to His will; whom also it pleased Him to be born man by the Virgin; who also was fire when He conversed with Moses from the bush. ...” in Chapter 127 - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01289.htm

Again Justin Martyr says in Chapter 129,

“... And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said. ... sent from the Father of all which appeared to Moses, or to Abraham, or to Jacob, is called an Angel because He came to men (for by Him the commands of the Father have been proclaimed to men) ... And that this power which the prophetic word calls God, as has been also amply demonstrated, and Angel ...” in Chapter 129 - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01289.htm

ItsAdventageous · Jan 26, 2023

TheLearner said:

[7]Eusebius (AD 260/265 – AD 339/340); also called Eusebius of Caesarea and Eusebius Pamphili, was a Roman historian, of Greek descent, exegete and Christian polemicist. He became the Bishop of Early centers of Caesarea about the year 314 A.D - Wikipedia

Eusebius Pamphili, Bishop of Caearea in Palestine, Hist. Eccles., I, ii, 7

Chapter 2. Summary view of the pre-existence and divinity of our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ.

"... [Page 49; internally Page 15] Chapter II. Summary view of the pre-existence and Divinity of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ ... the prince and leader of the spiritual and immortal host of heaven, the angel of the mighty council, the agent to execute the Father's secret will, the maker of all things with the Father ... the Lord and God and King of all created things ... [Page 49; internally Page 15] -

https://archive.org/stream/ecclesiasticalh02boylgoog#page/n49/mode/1up

"... [Page 50; internally Page 16] The Lord God, therefore, appeared as a common man to Abraham, whilst sitting at the oak of Mamre. And he, immediately falling down, although he plainly saw a man with his eyes, nevertheless worshipped him as God, and entreated him as Lord. He confesses, too, that he is not ignorant who he is in the words, "Lord, the judge of all the earth, wilt not thou judge righteously?" ..." [Page 50; internally Page 16] - https://archive.org/stream/ecclesiasticalh02boylgoog#page/n50/mode/1up

"... [Page 51; internally Page 17] Of Him, Moses obviously speaks as the second after the Father, when he says, "The Lord rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord." Him also again appearing to Jacob in the form of man, the sacred Scriptures call by the name of God, saying to Jacob, "Thy name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name, because thou hast prevailed with God." Whence also Jacob called the name of that place the vision of God, saying, "I have seen God face to face, and my soul has lived." To suppose these divine appearances the forms of subordinate angels and servants of God, is inadmissable; since, as often as any of these appeared to men, the Scriptures do not conceal the fact in the name, expressly saying that they were called not God nor Lord, but angels, as would be easy to prove by a thousand references. Joshua also, the successor of Moses, calls him as the ruler of celestial angels and archangels, of supernal powers, and as the power and wisdom of God, intrusted with the second rank of sovereignty and rule over all, "the captain of the Lord's host," although he saw him only in the form and shape of man. For thus it is written: "And it came to pass when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold there stood a man over against him, with his sword drawn in his hand; and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries. And he said, Nay but as captain of the Lord's host am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant? And the captain of the Lord's host, said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot: for the place whereon thou standest is holy." Josh. V.

Here then you will perceive from the words themselves, that this is no other than the one that also communicated with Moses." [Page 51; internally Page 17] - https://archive.org/stream/ecclesiasticalh02boylgoog#page/n51/mode/1up

"... [Page 52; internally Page 18] Since the Scriptures in the same words, and in reference to the same one says, "When the Lord saw that he drew near to see, the Lord called to him from the midst of the bush, saying, Moses, Moses. And he answered, Here am I. But he said, Draw not nearer, loose thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place on which thou standest is holy ground. And he said to him, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." ..." [Page 52; internally Page 18] - https://archive.org/stream/ecclesiasticalh02boylgoog#page/n52/mode/1up

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250101.htm

ItsAdventageous · Jan 26, 2023

TheLearner said:

[8] Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus, anglicised as Tertullian (c. AD 160 – c. AD 225 AD),[1] was a prolific early Christian author from Carthage in the Roman province of Africa.[2] He is the first Christian author to produce an extensive corpus of Latin Christian literature. - Wikipedia

TERTULLIAN, AN ANSWER TO THE JEWS, (Adversus Iudaeos)

TRANSLATED BY THE REV. S. THELWALL.

CHAP. IX. -- OF THE PROPHECIES OF THE BIRTH AND ACHIEVEMENTS OF CHRIST

"... For He who ever spake to Moses was the Son of God Himself; who, too, was always seen.169 ... the Spirit, ... calls the forerunner of Christ, John, a future "angel," through the prophet: "Behold, I send mine angel before Thy" - that is, Christ's - "face, who shall prepare Thy way before Thee."173

169 Comp. Num. xii. 5-8. ...

173 Mal. iii. 1: comp. Matt. xi. 10; Mark i. 2; Luke vii. 27." - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0308.html

ItsAdventageous · Jan 26, 2023

TheLearner said:

[9] Roman Catholic New American Bible with Footnotes [along with Douay Rheims]:

New American Bible for Catholics, footnotes:

The New American Bible - Revised Edition, 2011: Translated from the Original Languages with critical Use of All the Ancient Sources Including the Revised Psalms and the Revised new Testament, 2011, By Oxford University Press, Inc.

The New American Bible: NIHIL OBSTAT: Stephen J. Hartdegen, O.F.M., S.S.L.; Christian P. Ceroke, O. Carm., S.T.D.; IMPRIMATUR: [Cross] Patrick Cardinal O'Boyle, D.D. Archbishop of Washington July 27, 1970; The Revised New Testament: NIHIL OBSTAT: Stephen J. Hartdegen, O.F.M., S.S.L. Censor Deputatus; IMPRIMATUR: [Cross] James Cardinal Hickey, S.T.D., J.C.D. Archbishop of Washington August 27, 1986

Standard Print:

http://books.google.com/books?id=r1-taawNEEYC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Large Print:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ydPhM5n2 dgC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Genesis 16:7:

"… [Standard Print Page 48; Large Print Page 72] * [16:7] The LORD’s angel: a manifestation of God in human form; in v. 13 the messenger is identified with God. See note on Ex 3:2. …" [Standard Print Page 48; Large Print Page 72] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/genesis/16#01016007-1

Genesis 18:10:

"… [Standard Print Page 49; Large Print Page 73] * [18:10] One of them: i.e., the Lord. ..." [Standard Print Page 49; Large Print Page 73] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/genesis/18#01018010-1

Exodus 3:2:

“... [Standard Print Page 92; Large Print Page 136] * [3:2] The angel of the LORD: Hebrew mal’ak or “messenger” is regularly translated angelos by the Septuagint, from which the English word “angel” is derived, but the Hebrew term lacks connotations now popularly associated with “angel” (such as wings). Although angels frequently assume human form (cf. Gn 18–19), the term is also used to indicate the visual form under which God occasionally appeared and spoke to people, referred to indifferently in some Old Testament texts either as God’s “angel,” mal’ak, or as God. Cf. Gn 16:7, 13; Ex 14:19, 24–25; Nm 22:22–35; Jgs 6:11–18. ...” [Standard Print Page 92; Large Print Page 136] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/ex/3:2#02003002-1

Joshua 5:14:

"... [Standard Print Page 227; Large Print Page 335] * [5:14] Commander: the leader of the heavenly army of the Lord of hosts is either the Lord or an angelic warrior; if the latter, he is a messenger who speaks in the person of the one who sent him. I have come: the solemn language of theophany; cf., e.g., Ps 50:3; 96:13. …" [Standard Print Page 227; Large Print Page 335] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/joshua/5#06005014-1

*It is interesting that the Douay Rheims [Jesuit] Roman Catholic Bible, with Challoner's notation says that this “Commander” in Joshua 5:14 is named “Michael”, and in Daniel 10:21, states that the “guardian general” of the Church is “Michael”, and yet also recognizes that “the leader of the heavenly army of the Lord of hosts” can indeed be “the Lord”, why then cannot “the Lord” be symbolized by the designation “Michael”, which according to notation of Revelation 12:7 in the NAB means “Who can compare with God?”, for is not Jesus Christ, God, the Son, the Chief Leader of all Angels or Highest Messenger of the Father, yea the Arch-Angel, yea the Apostle [Hebrews 3:1] of the Father Himself?:

Joshua 5:14 [Douay Rheims [Jesuit] Roman Catholic Bible with Challoner notation]:

"... [14] Prince of the host of the Lord: St. Michael, who is called prince of the people of Israel, Dan. 10. 21. ..." - http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=6&ch=5&l=14#x

Daniel 10:21 [Douay Rheims [Jesuit] Roman Catholic Bible with Challoner notation]:

"... [21] Michael your prince: The guardian general of the church of God. …" - http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=32&ch=10&l=21#x

Revelation 12:7:

"... [Standard Print Page 2128; Large Print Page 2128] * [12:7–12] Michael, mentioned only here in Revelation, wins a victory over the dragon. A hymn of praise follows. …" [Standard Print Page 2128; Large Print Page 2128] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/12#74012007-1

"... [Standard Print Page 2128; Large Print Page 2128] * [12:7] Michael: the archangel, guardian and champion of Israel; cf. Dn 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 9. In Hebrew, the name Michael means “Who can compare with God?”; cf. Rev 13:4. …" [Standard Print Page 2128; Large Print Page 2128] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/rev/12:7#74012007-2

Hebrews 3:1:

"... [Standard Print Page 2051; Large Print Page 2051] the apostle, a designation for Jesus used only here in the New Testament (cf. Jn 13:16; 17:3), meaning one sent as God’s final word to us (Heb 1:2) ..." [Standard Print Page 2051; Large Print Page 2051] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/hebrews/3#66003001-1

Judges 6:22:

"… [Standard Print Page 369; Large Print Page 369] * [6:22] Ancient Israel thought that seeing God face to face meant mortal danger, as Ex 33:20 indicates and as Gideon’s reaction here shows. Compare the reaction of Samson’s parents (13:22–23) when they realize they have been conversing with the Lord. ..." [Standard Print Page 369; Large Print Page 369] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/jgs/6:22#07006022-1

Judges 13:

"... [Standard Print Page 370; Large Print Page 370] * [13:22] We will certainly die: seeing God face to face was believed to be fatal, as explained in note on 6:22, where Gideon’s reaction is similar to that of Manoah here. ..." [Standard Print Page 370; Large Print Page 370] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/judges/13#07013017-1

Malachi 3:1:

"… [Standard Print Page 1070; Large Print Page 1587] * [3:1] My messenger…before me: Mt 11:10 applies these words to John the Baptist; Mt 11:14 further identifies John as Elijah (see Mal 3:23). Some take God’s messenger in v. 1a to be a person distinct from “the lord” and “the messenger of the covenant” in v. 1b ... Some consider “the lord” and “the messenger of the covenant” to be divine …" [Standard Print Page 1070; Large Print Page 1587] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/malachi/3#47003001-1

birdie · Jan 26, 2023

Walter said:

Thanks Walter for your question and statements. Jesus goes by a lot of names in the Bible and each one shows a different aspect of him. For example, the title King of Kings shows an aspect of Jesus that can seem different in aspect from the Lamb of God, which is Jesus also. Even the title 'Jesus' is used in the Bible only sometimes, but at other times other titles are used. Why didn't God always say 'Jesus' when referring to him, but instead says Prince of Peace sometimes or the bright and morning star? This is the way it is with Michael, in my opinion. It is another title for Jesus showing an aspect of him. I have nothing to do with the organization known as Jehovah's Witnesses and do not accept a lot of their doctrine. However, when it comes to Michael being a title of Jesus , I agree that Michael the Archangel is referring to Jesus. Archangel means chief messenger. Jesus is the chief messenger. That is why he wins against Satan by his own blood in the battle of Rev 12. However, the title 'the angel of the Lord' also is speaking of Jesus. Or simply, angel. We read in Gen 48 'The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads ' Jesus is the one who redeems from all evil and who blesses. There are too many examples to mention, but just consider Rev 20: 'And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him '. This angel must be Jesus as well since he is only one who can bind Satan. Anyway, in answer to your question, 'Is Michael another name for Jesus?' the answer is Yes, but it is showing a particular aspect of him and that is why the title is used. It seems that we agree based on your statements above.

ItsAdventageous · Jan 26, 2023

TheLearner said:

There are also just as many dictionaries, encyclopedia's, and even Bible's, etc that say the same thing, that Jesus (the Son of the Father) is "the Angel of the LORD". Those may be cited upon request also.

Inquisitor · Jan 26, 2023

Walter said:

Friday 1-20-23 6th. Day Of The Weekly Cycle, Tevet 27 5783 31st. Winter Day

Written by Biblical Research Institute

What biblical evidence supports the teaching that Michael is another name for Jesus?

The name Michael is used five times in the Bible to designate a celestial being (Dan. 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 9; Rev. 12:7). He is nowhere explicitly identified with Jesus, but some Christian writers have equated the two by carefully comparing the role played by Michael with that of Jesus. Any comparisons yield not only similarities but also dissimilarities, and both should be taken into account. We’ll start with the passages in which Michael is mentioned and then broaden the horizon to include several passages that are conceptually related to His person and experience.

1. He seems to be an angel: Michael is identified as “one of the chief princes” (Dan. 10:13), “your prince” (verse 21), “the great prince” (Dan. 12:1), and “the archangel” (Jude 9). “Archangel” implies that He is the prince of the angels, suggesting that Michael cannot be another name for Jesus because He is divine and angels are created beings.

Part of the problem is that the noun “angel” is taken to designate a creature, while in the Bible it designates a function. In other words, an “angel” is a being who functions as a “messenger” of God. In most cases they are created beings, but there is an exception.

In the Old Testament there are several references to the “angel [messenger] of the Lord” in which He is equated with God (e.g., Ex. 3:2, 4; Judges 6:12, 14). It is not that the Messenger is identified with the One who sent Him as His representative, but rather that the Sender functions at the same time as the Messenger. Many Christians have identified the Angel of the Lord as the preincarnate Christ. This Christological interpretation seems to be biblically valid.

2. He is leader of the angels: The phrase “one of the chief princes” (Dan. 10:13) could give the impression that He is one among many princes. But according to Revelation 12:7, Michael is the supreme leader of the heavenly angels, or “the great prince.” When necessary, He personally assists angels in their assigned tasks (Dan. 10:13), yet the angelic hosts are under His command (Rev. 12:7). He is indeed the “archangel” (Jude 9). This title is mentioned in one other place in the Bible: 1 Thesselonians 4:16, in the context of the second coming of Christ. He returns “with the voice of the archangel,” suggesting that Michael is most probably another name for Jesus.

3. He protects God’s people: Michael is described as the Prince of Israel (Dan. 10:21), the One who protects Israel (Dan. 12:1). This protection is described in military terms and portrays the Prince as a warrior. In practically all the passages in which He is mentioned there is a conflict between God’s people and their enemies, and Michael is present to defend them or fight for them. The protection can also take the form of judgment in which Michael stands up and defends and delivers God’s people (ibid.). Those are functions of Christ in the New Testament and confirm the suggestion that Michael and Christ are the same person, involved in leadership in the heavenly and earthly realms.

4. He is Prince of the heavenly hosts: In Daniel 8:10 there is a reference to a celestial being who performs the daily services in the heavenly sanctuary. There is only one other passage in the Old Testament in which this being is mentioned. Joshua had an encounter with a being who identified himself as the “captain [commander] of the host [army] of the Lord” (Joshua 5:14). He ordered Joshua to remove his shoes because the ground he was standing on was holy, similar to God’s apparition to Moses. The context makes clear that this being was the Lord Himself (Joshua 6:2). This Prince is the same person called in other passages Prince Michael, and therefore we can identify Him with the preincarnate Christ.

So even though the Bible does not clearly identify Michael with Christ, there is enough biblical information to warrant the view that They are the same person. The name Michael stresses the fact that Christ is the supreme leader of the heavenly angels and the defender of His people as warrior, judge, and priest.

Views:

Is Michael Another Name For Jesus?

Love, Walter and Debbie

The name of the man, the messenger of the Lord, is never revealed in the Old Testament.

Here is an example below.

Genesis 32:27
So he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have contended with God and with men, and have prevailed.” And Jacob asked him and said, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And he blessed him there. So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been spared.”

The man did not give Jacob His name.

His name is certainly not Michael, His identity is withheld on purpose.

ItsAdventageous · Jan 26, 2023

Inquisitor said:

The first is true.

The second is biased a priori based on mere fabricated conjecture.

Since as you say, "The man did not give Jacob His name.", how then can your second premise be true? It cannot be.

To have a nameless individual, that means any name could be his, not any name except one you wish it wouldn't be.

If it is proven that the man is the Son of God,

and if it is proven that one of the names of the Son of God is indeed Michael,

then it follows that one of the man's name is Michael inspite of it not being directly mentioned by the man, but only if the first two premises are true.

Lanolin · Jan 26, 2023

Not really follwing all this thread but

I thought one of the names of Jesus was Immanuel. 'God with us'

As far as I know Michael is not one of Jesus names but its the name of an angel (many angels names end in 'el')
Immanuel is one of Jesus identities? Its often sung in Christmas carols eg Jesus our Immanuel.

CS1 · Jan 26, 2023

ItsAdventageous said:

lol,

Jesus is not the Angel of the Lord. However, the Spirit of Christ is Eternal. The Trinty and not be comprehended by the human intellect but can be apprehended through the word of God and clearly seen.

Saying Jesus is an angel without the context of why " the Angel of the Lord" is used in scripture is what man says about the encounter in which we see few things to give question is this is an angel.

1. worship and bowing down are done

2. Abraham and others call Him LORD!

In every other situation, Angel tells men in the word of God NOT to bow down.

The Book Rev with John and Abraham was told nothing about bowing or Joshua.

Some have provided much, yet they left out these very important details. Who can receive worship and not be GOD?

Answer no one.

TheLearner · Jan 26, 2023

ItsAdventageous said:

Let's look at Enoch
1 Enoch 1:9
9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of ⌈His⌉ holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy ⌈all⌉ the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works ⌈of their ungodliness⌉ which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners ⌈have spoken⌉ against Him.
Now Jude
14 Now Enoch, the seventh in descent beginning with Adam, even prophesied of them, saying, “Look! The Lord is coming with thousands and thousands of his holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all, and to convict every person of all their thoroughly ungodly deeds that they have committed, and of all the harsh words that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”
"
"The longest and only unambiguous quotation in the Epistle of Jude is not from an OT book but rather from 1 Enoch. There are a couple of OT allusions in the Jude text. Enoch is acknowledged to be “seventh from Adam” (14), and, according to the OT, counting inclusively, he is. The image of God coming with his angelic hosts (14) is drawn from Deut. 33:2 ... This is a colorful metaphorical description of the theophany at Sinai. The “holy ones” probably are angels, though this is less than certain because “holy ones” in the ensuing verse (33:3) clearly refers to God’s people. Nevertheless, the language is picked up by 1 En. 1:9 and then cited here in Jude to conjure up the divine court coming for final judgment ..."
Carson, D. A. "Jude" in Beale, G. K., and D. A. Carson, editors. Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament (p. 2429) Baker Academic, 2007 "
https://intertextual.bible/text/1-enoch-1.9-jude-1.14
https://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch/ENOCH_1.HTM

The fact that it is a quote is well known among scholars and Bible students.

Ted01 · Jan 26, 2023

This thread is rather amusing and really sad too, imho.

I've heard that people who believe the gospel of Mary Magdalene use the same approach in referencing the word "apostle" as meaning "sent one", proves their nonsense that Mary was the first Apostle. They use the Scriptures where Jesus tells Mary to inform them that He had risen as proof the Jesus sent her, ergo she's an Apostle, appointed by Jesus Himself.
Totally absurd.

Likewise, JW's do this with the word "angel" meaning "messenger" proves that Jesus is an Angel. Again, totally absurd! LOL.

But technically, they both are correct as far as wordplay goes. But the substance of their respective messages is nothing short of heresy.
I don't think it wise to debate with them... it's a vain and useless conversation, imho.

2 Tim. 2:16-18 (ESV) 16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.

TheLearner · Jan 26, 2023

ItsAdventageous said:

The problem is, there is a lot. I do not desire to get into trouble for 'spamming' the board, so I will post what I can.

Mind you, I am only posting that which was in regards to identity of the Son as "the Angel of the LORD" (and such like citaions) among post apostolic (12 apostles) writers as we have them. This first one is in English, as I could not manually type the syriack out.

[1] Melito of Sardis (wrote AD 165 – AD 175, died c. AD 180) was the bishop of Sardis near Smyrna in western Anatolia.

Cureton's Spicilegium Syriacum, contaning remains of Bardeson, Meliton, Ambrose and Mara Bar Serapion. Now first edited, with an English translation and notes, by the Rev. William Cureton, M.A. F.R.S. Chaplain in Ordinary to the Queen, Rector of St. Margaret's, and Canon of Westminster. London: Francis and John Rivington, St. Paul's Churchyard and Waterloo Place. 1855.

"... [Page 53] From Meliton the Bishop; On Faith.

We have made collections from the Law and the Prophets relative to those things which have been declared respecting our Lord Jesus Christ, that we may prove to your love, that He is perfect reason, the Word of God; who was begotten before the light; who was Creator together with the Father; who was the fashioner of man; who was all in all; who among the Patriarchs was Patriarch; who in the law was the Law; among the priests Chief priest; amongst kings Governor; among prophets the Prophet; among the angels Archangel; in the Voice the Word; among spirits Spirit; in the Father the Son; in God God- the king forever and ever. For this was He who was pilot to Noah; who conducted Abraham; who was bound with Isaac, who was in exile with Jacob, who was sold with Joseph, who was captain with Moses; who was the divider of the inheritance with Jesus the Son of Nun, who in David and the prophets foretold his own sufferings, who was incarnate in the Virgin, who was born at Bethlehem, (33) who was wrapped in swaddling clothes in the manger, who was seen of the shepherd, who was glorified of the angels, who was worshipped of the Magi, who was pointed out by John, who assembled the Apostles, who preached the kingdom, who healed the maimed, who gave light to the blind, who raised the dead, who appeared in the temple, who was not believed on by the people, who was betrayed by [Page 53-54] Judas, who was laid hold on by the priests, who was condemned by Pilate, who was transfixed in the flesh, who was hanged upon the tree, who was buried in the earth, who rose from the dead, who appeared to the Apostles, who ascended to heaven, who sitteth on the right hand of the Father, who is the rest of those that are departed, the recoverer of those who were lost, the light of those who are in darkness, the deliverer of those who are captives, the guide of those who have gone astray, the refuge of the afflicted, the bridegroom of the Church, the charioteer of the Cherubim, the captain of the angels, God who is of God, the Son who is of the Father, Jesus Christ, the King for ever and ever. Amen. ..." [Pages 53-54] - https://archive.org/stream/spicilegiumsyria00cureuoft#page/53/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/spicilegiumsyria00cureuoft#page/54/mode/1up

Thanks, did I misunderstand that you were saying that the "the Angel of the LORD" is Michael?

TheLearner · Jan 26, 2023

TheLearner said:

What post numbers?

TheLearner · Jan 26, 2023

ItsAdventageous said:

Secondary source, the ROman Catholic Encyclopedia:

[2] Roman Catholic Encyclopedia:

The Catholic Encyclopedia, an international work of reference on the Constitution, Doctrine, Disciple, and History of the Catholic Church, Edited by Charles G. Herbermann, Ph.D., LL.D. Edward A. Pace, Ph. D., D.D. Conde B. Pallen, PhD., LL.D. Thomas J. Shahan, D.D. John J. Wynne, S.J. Assisted by Numerous Collaborators ["... fully 500 ... and 150 editorial assistants" - To the Knights of Columbus and their Friends], Fifteen Volumes and Index, Volume 1 [Aachen - Assize], Special Edition under the Auspices of the Knight of Columbus Catholic Truth Committee; New York, The Encyclopedia Press, Inc., Nihil Obstat, November 1, 1907; Remy Lafort, S.T.D. Censor; Imprimatur [Maltese Cross] John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York; Copyright, 1907 by Robert Appleton Company; Copyright, 1913 by the Encyclopedia Press, Inc.

"... [Page 479] We have had occasion to mention the Septuagint version more than once, and it may not be amiss to indicate a few passages where it is our only source of information regarding the angels. The best known passage is Isaiah 9:6, where the Septuagint gives the name of the Messias, as "the Angel of great Counsel". …

... But while we read of "the Angels of God" meeting Jacob (Gen., XXXII, 1) we at other times read of one who is termed "the Angel of God" par excellence, e.g. Gen., XXXI, 11. ... the story in Gen., XIII, develops, the speaker is always "the Lord". Thus in the account of the Angel of the Lord who visited Gideon (Judges, VI), the visitor is alternately spoken of as "the Angel of the Lord" and as "the Lord". Similarly, in Judges, XIII, the Angel of the Lord appears, and both Manue and his wife exclaim: "We shall certainly die because we have seen God." ... in the story of the Exodus it is the Lord who goes before them in the pillar of a cloud (Exod., XIII, 21), and the Septuagint makes no change (cf. also Num., XIV, 14, and Neh., IX, 7-20). ... When we turn to Exod., XXXIII, where God is angry with His people for worshipping the golden calf, it is hard not to feel that it is God Himself who has hitherto been their guide, but who now refuses to accompany them any longer. … [Page 479-480]

... [Page 480] The Massoretic text as well as the Vulgate of Exodus 3 and 19-20 clearly represent the Supreme Being as appearing to Moses in the bush and on Mount Sinai; ... The person of "the angel of the Lord" finds a counterpart in the personification of Wisdom in the Sapiential books and in at least one passage (Zechariah 3:1) it seems to stand for that "Son of Man" whom Daniel (7:13) saw brought before "the Ancient of Days". Zacharias says: "And the Lord showed me Jesus the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan stood on His right hand to be His adversary". Tertullian regards many of these passages as preludes to the Incarnation; as the Word of God adumbrating the sublime character in which He is one day to reveal Himself to men (cf. Against Praxeas 16; Against Marcion 2.27, 3.9, 1.10, 1.21-22). ... The earlier Fathers, going by the letter of the text, maintained that it was actually God Himself who appeared. He who appeared was called God and acted as God. It was not unnatural then for Tertullian, as we have already seen, to regard such manifestations in the light of preludes to the Incarnation, and most of the Eastern Fathers followed the same line of thought. It was held as recently as 1851 by Vandenbroeck, "Dissertatio Theologica de Theophaniis sub Veteri Testamento" (Louvain). ...

... St. Augustine (Sermo vii, de Scripturis, P.G. V) when treating of the burning bush (Exodus 3) says: "... . . . Some maintain that he is called both the Lord and the angel of the Lord because he was Christ, indeed the prophet (Isaiah 9:6, Septuagint Version) clearly styles Christ the 'Angel of great Counsel.'"The saint proceeds to show that such a view is tenable though we must be careful not to fall into Arianism in stating it. ...

... As an instance of how convinced some of the Fathers were in holding ..., we may note Theodoret's words (In Exod.): "The whole passage (Exodus 3) shows that it was God who appeared to him. But (Moses) called Him an angel in order to let us know that it was not God the Father whom he saw — for whose angel could the Father be? — but the Only-begotten Son, the Angel of great Counsel" (cf. Eusebius, Church History I.2.7; St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:6). …" [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Section "A", subsection "Angels", part "The term "angel" in the Septuagint"] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm

https://archive.org/stream/catholicencyclop01herbuoft#page/479/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/catholicencyclop01herbuoft#page/480/mode/1up

newadvent.org

TheLearner · Jan 26, 2023

ItsAdventageous said:

[9] Roman Catholic New American Bible with Footnotes [along with Douay Rheims]:

New American Bible for Catholics, footnotes:

The New American Bible - Revised Edition, 2011: Translated from the Original Languages with critical Use of All the Ancient Sources Including the Revised Psalms and the Revised new Testament, 2011, By Oxford University Press, Inc.

The New American Bible: NIHIL OBSTAT: Stephen J. Hartdegen, O.F.M., S.S.L.; Christian P. Ceroke, O. Carm., S.T.D.; IMPRIMATUR: [Cross] Patrick Cardinal O'Boyle, D.D. Archbishop of Washington July 27, 1970; The Revised New Testament: NIHIL OBSTAT: Stephen J. Hartdegen, O.F.M., S.S.L. Censor Deputatus; IMPRIMATUR: [Cross] James Cardinal Hickey, S.T.D., J.C.D. Archbishop of Washington August 27, 1986

Standard Print:

http://books.google.com/books?id=r1-taawNEEYC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Large Print:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ydPhM5n2 dgC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Genesis 16:7:

"… [Standard Print Page 48; Large Print Page 72] * [16:7] The LORD’s angel: a manifestation of God in human form; in v. 13 the messenger is identified with God. See note on Ex 3:2. …" [Standard Print Page 48; Large Print Page 72] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/genesis/16#01016007-1

Genesis 18:10:

"… [Standard Print Page 49; Large Print Page 73] * [18:10] One of them: i.e., the Lord. ..." [Standard Print Page 49; Large Print Page 73] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/genesis/18#01018010-1

Exodus 3:2:

“... [Standard Print Page 92; Large Print Page 136] * [3:2] The angel of the LORD: Hebrew mal’ak or “messenger” is regularly translated angelos by the Septuagint, from which the English word “angel” is derived, but the Hebrew term lacks connotations now popularly associated with “angel” (such as wings). Although angels frequently assume human form (cf. Gn 18–19), the term is also used to indicate the visual form under which God occasionally appeared and spoke to people, referred to indifferently in some Old Testament texts either as God’s “angel,” mal’ak, or as God. Cf. Gn 16:7, 13; Ex 14:19, 24–25; Nm 22:22–35; Jgs 6:11–18. ...” [Standard Print Page 92; Large Print Page 136] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/ex/3:2#02003002-1

Joshua 5:14:

"... [Standard Print Page 227; Large Print Page 335] * [5:14] Commander: the leader of the heavenly army of the Lord of hosts is either the Lord or an angelic warrior; if the latter, he is a messenger who speaks in the person of the one who sent him. I have come: the solemn language of theophany; cf., e.g., Ps 50:3; 96:13. …" [Standard Print Page 227; Large Print Page 335] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/joshua/5#06005014-1

*It is interesting that the Douay Rheims [Jesuit] Roman Catholic Bible, with Challoner's notation says that this “Commander” in Joshua 5:14 is named “Michael”, and in Daniel 10:21, states that the “guardian general” of the Church is “Michael”, and yet also recognizes that “the leader of the heavenly army of the Lord of hosts” can indeed be “the Lord”, why then cannot “the Lord” be symbolized by the designation “Michael”, which according to notation of Revelation 12:7 in the NAB means “Who can compare with God?”, for is not Jesus Christ, God, the Son, the Chief Leader of all Angels or Highest Messenger of the Father, yea the Arch-Angel, yea the Apostle [Hebrews 3:1] of the Father Himself?:

Joshua 5:14 [Douay Rheims [Jesuit] Roman Catholic Bible with Challoner notation]:

"... [14] Prince of the host of the Lord: St. Michael, who is called prince of the people of Israel, Dan. 10. 21. ..." - http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=6&ch=5&l=14#x

Daniel 10:21 [Douay Rheims [Jesuit] Roman Catholic Bible with Challoner notation]:

"... [21] Michael your prince: The guardian general of the church of God. …" - http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=32&ch=10&l=21#x

Revelation 12:7:

"... [Standard Print Page 2128; Large Print Page 2128] * [12:7–12] Michael, mentioned only here in Revelation, wins a victory over the dragon. A hymn of praise follows. …" [Standard Print Page 2128; Large Print Page 2128] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/12#74012007-1

"... [Standard Print Page 2128; Large Print Page 2128] * [12:7] Michael: the archangel, guardian and champion of Israel; cf. Dn 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 9. In Hebrew, the name Michael means “Who can compare with God?”; cf. Rev 13:4. …" [Standard Print Page 2128; Large Print Page 2128] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/rev/12:7#74012007-2

Hebrews 3:1:

"... [Standard Print Page 2051; Large Print Page 2051] the apostle, a designation for Jesus used only here in the New Testament (cf. Jn 13:16; 17:3), meaning one sent as God’s final word to us (Heb 1:2) ..." [Standard Print Page 2051; Large Print Page 2051] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/hebrews/3#66003001-1

Judges 6:22:

"… [Standard Print Page 369; Large Print Page 369] * [6:22] Ancient Israel thought that seeing God face to face meant mortal danger, as Ex 33:20 indicates and as Gideon’s reaction here shows. Compare the reaction of Samson’s parents (13:22–23) when they realize they have been conversing with the Lord. ..." [Standard Print Page 369; Large Print Page 369] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/jgs/6:22#07006022-1

Judges 13:

"... [Standard Print Page 370; Large Print Page 370] * [13:22] We will certainly die: seeing God face to face was believed to be fatal, as explained in note on 6:22, where Gideon’s reaction is similar to that of Manoah here. ..." [Standard Print Page 370; Large Print Page 370] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/judges/13#07013017-1

Malachi 3:1:

"… [Standard Print Page 1070; Large Print Page 1587] * [3:1] My messenger…before me: Mt 11:10 applies these words to John the Baptist; Mt 11:14 further identifies John as Elijah (see Mal 3:23). Some take God’s messenger in v. 1a to be a person distinct from “the lord” and “the messenger of the covenant” in v. 1b ... Some consider “the lord” and “the messenger of the covenant” to be divine …" [Standard Print Page 1070; Large Print Page 1587] - http://www.usccb.org/bible/malachi/3#47003001-1

Thanks for the updates, I will need to print out to read.

Is Michael Another Name For Jesus?

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