Can a Christian lose salvation?

Do you know that "saved" in scripture has different meanings depending on the context.

Very often saved means "deliverance from sin" in the temporal world, the here and now.

So tell me if a person is delivered from sin and has a quality of life (this is the real meaning of eternal life according to the original language) why would God take that away?

Do you regard God as being fickle, not true to His word?

Judas followed Jesus from the start of the ministry up until he betrayed him. Some estimates put that at about 3 years.

Jesus answered, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with Me will betray Me. The Son of Man will go just as it is written about Him, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed. It would be better for him if he had not been born.” Matthew 26:23-24

Do you have a verse where Jesus tells Judas what you claim?

Great questions. Do you agree there are conditions attached to eternal life or are you in the OSAS camp? Knowing where you stand will help me know how to answer you.

Okay, he was still cursed because he betrayed Jesus. He hung himself before the resurrection.

Can you prove from Paul's letters to the body of Christ that salvation can be lost?

Scripture is clear, once a person is declared justified/redeemed/sanctified based upon the person's belief faith IN the work of the

cross/resurrection and they accept of the free gift of salvation their status as "justified" cannot be revoked nor can they declare

themselves unjustified.

So a saved person (delivered from sin) is saved.

They can live in that new nature or not. Hopefully they will be disciplined and live in the new nature and not the flesh.

I am not a Calvinist, I do believe that there are carnal Christians and the Corinthians are an example of this.

I actually just proved otherwise.

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father

Or, this way.

1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.

Show me in Matthew 19:28,29 where Jesus said "Judas" would inherit eternal life. Your eisegesis has exposed you.

Matthew 19:28 - And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. That is "descriptive" of genuine disciples and is not descriptive of Judas Iscariot.

In John 8:31, Jesus said to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." Judas did not continue in His word, but instead, betrayed Jesus, which demonstrated that he was not truly a disciple of Jesus.

Of course Jesus was speaking the truth. It's your eisegesis that does not line up with the truth.

What does scripture say about Judas Iscariot?

1. Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil.....John 6:64-71
2. Judas was spiritually unclean......John 13:11
3. Judas is lost and is the son of perdition.........John 17:12
4. Judas was not kept by Jesus........John 17:12; 18:9
5. Judas was a traitor.....Luke 6:16
6. Judas was a betrayer.....Multiple verses.
7. Judas was a thief and did not care for the poor........John 12:6
8. Judas was guilty of a greater sin.......John 19:11
9. Judas was influenced by Satan to betray Jesus.......John 13:2
10. Judas was entered by Satan.......Luke 22:3
11. Judas kills himself......Matthew 27:5
12. Judas' habitation to be desolate......Acts 1:20, Psalm 69:25

And what happens if at any point someone abandons the faith?

Jesus speaking to the 12 apostles said they would have 12 thrones and eternal life. I already quoted the irrefutable verses for it.

Read it again, Judas was never called an unbeliever. Judas was a betrayer, but the unbelievers were those who turned back. Furthermore, Peter said “we have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

John 6
66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67“You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

Actually, the Bible proves Judas was a believer. Judas, being one of the 12, was given authority to cast our demons and heal, a power reserved only for those who believe.

Mark 6
7Calling the Twelve to him, he began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over impure spirits.
12They went out and preached that people should repent. 13They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them.

Mark 16
17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

Looks like it’s you who has been exposed by his eisegesis.

Consider the following text:

John 12 (describing an incident PRIOR TO his betrayal [with a kiss] of Jesus) -

4But one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was going to betray Him, asked, 5“Why wasn’t this perfume sold for three hundred denariib and the money given to the poor?” 6Judas did not say this because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief. As keeper of the money bag, he used to take from what was put into it.


(sounds like this was taking place well-before the betrayal!!)


In another passage, John 13, it says,

10Jesus told him, “Whoever has already bathed needs only to wash his feet, and he will be completely clean. And you are clean, though not all of you.” 11For He knew who would betray Him. That is why He said, “Not all of you are clean.”






Look also at what Matthew 7 says, "I NEVER KNEW you"... said to ppl insisting, "haven't WE DONE... many wonderful works" and in His name had done them (including "prophesied in thy name" and "cast out devils"... and even their saying "Lord, Lord...")

Again, Jesus said you who have followed Me. Jesus did not personally, promise Judas and throne and eternal life. Judas betrayed Jesus and killed himself. Jesus does not make false promises and Judas was replaced by Matthias. Acts 1:23 - So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen 25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26 And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.

Read it again, Judas was never called an unbeliever. Judas was a betrayer, but the unbelievers were those who turned back. Furthermore, Peter said “we have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

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I see that you conveniently left out verse 64 - But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. Peter was speaking out of assumption that all 12 believed, but did not infallibly know that Judas was a devil.

So according to you, "betrayer, unclean, devil, son of perdition" = believer?

Actually, the Bible proves Judas was a believer. Judas, being one of the 12, was given authority to cast our demons and heal, a power reserved only for those who believe.

Click to expand...

That doesn't prove anything. More eisegesis.

Your eisegesis remains exposed. Notice they went out two by two and in Matthew 10:1, we see that Jesus gave His disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. The power was by the authority of Jesus, yet Jesus still referred to Judas Iscariot as an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) So much for Judas being a genuine believer. Apparently, Judas may have believed that Jesus' name has the power to cast out demons but did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition. (John 17:12)

Agreed!

Those who did not believe were plural, who was a devil is singular. Judas was the betrayer, not the ones who didn’t believe and turned back and left Jesus.One doesn’t cancel the other since even the devils believe and tremble.

Furthermore, Peter said “we” believe. Since Peter knew Judas personally, his words about what Judas believe trump yours, making Peter an authoritative source about what the 12 disciples believe. Peter said Judas is a believer.

Mark 6 and Mark 16 show Judas was given authority over unclean spirits and could heal; spiritual gifts only reserved for believers.

You’re spinning your wheels if you think you can somehow explain this away as Judas being a devil with gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The character development of Judas shows he changed over time. In the end he became a betrayer and most likely lost his salvation and eternal life. Judas wad the son of destruction.

So yes salvation can be lost. Judas is the plain example of this.

In John 6:60-61, we see that many of Jesus' so called disciples complained and were offended about what Jesus said in verses 51-59. These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe." (John 6:64) They also walked with Him no more. Now just because these so called disciples may have believed in things about Jesus, does not mean they believed in Jesus unto salvation. It's the same with Judas. So in verse 64, in context with Jesus calling Judas a devil, (John 6:64-71) Jesus states - But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. Coincidence? So a devil is a term used to describe a saved believer? Try again.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

Not all belief is the same and you don't seem to understand that. John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of consummated, firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil and it's the same with Judas.

Peter assumed that Judas was a believer like the remaining 11 disciples, but found out otherwise. Judas may have done a good job of looking like the real deal to Peter and the remaining 11 disciples, yet only Jesus infallibly knew Judas' heart and said, "he is a devil!"

In John 10:21-30, we read - 21 After saying these things, Jesus was troubled in his spirit, and testified, “Truly, truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me.” 22 The disciples looked at one another, uncertain of whom he spoke. 23 One of his disciples, whom Jesus loved, was reclining at table at Jesus' side, 24 so Simon Peter motioned to him to ask Jesus of whom he was speaking. 25 So that disciple, leaning back against Jesus, said to him, “Lord, who is it?”

Peter didn't know who it was and assumed they were all saved believers, yet Peter did not have the authority to infallibly know the heart of Judas and ONLY Jesus did and said, "he is a devil!" So only Jesus is the authoritative source on who all the true believers really are. Just believing in certain things "about" Jesus does not necessarily mean that one believes in Jesus unto salvation.

The disciples went out two by two and were given authority by Jesus over unclean spirits and healing. It's by the authority of Jesus these things were accomplished. Nothing was said about the disciples receiving spiritual gifts from the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit was not yet given. (John 7:39) You continue to jump to conclusions through your continued eisegesis.

Jesus said that Judas is a devil (John 6:71) and the Holy Spirit was not yet given (John 7:39) so Judas did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13) or spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12) so you are spinning your wheels if you think you can explain that away.

More eisegesis. I see nothing in scripture to support your preconceived beliefs. To the contrary I see.

1. Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil.....John 6:64-71
2. Judas was spiritually unclean......John 13:11
3. Judas is lost and is the son of perdition.........John 17:12
4. Judas was not kept by Jesus........John 17:12; 18:9
5. Judas was a traitor.....Luke 6:16
6. Judas was a betrayer.....Multiple verses.
7. Judas was a thief and did not care for the poor........John 12:6
8. Judas was guilty of a greater sin.......John 19:11
9. Judas was influenced by Satan to betray Jesus.......John 13:2
10. Judas was entered by Satan.......Luke 22:3
11. Judas kills himself......Matthew 27:5
12. Judas' habitation to be desolate......Acts 1:20, Psalm 69:25

Pure assumption and eisegesis. You seem to be more concerned with supporting your narrative at all costs than you do in seriously considering the truth.

1. Jesus chose Judas. Luke 6:13
2. Judas was told he would have a throne and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:27-29
3. Judas was referred to as a believer. John 6:69
4. Judas was given authority to cast of demons and heal the sick. Mark 6:7-13
5. Judas was given authority over demons and to heal this sick which are gifts for those who believe. Mark 16:17,18
6. Judas was given to Jesus by God and was lost. John 17:12
7. Judas left the apostolic ministry to go where he belonged. Acts 1:25

So much more can be added to this list, but this is the meat and potatoes. The reality is that in the beginning Judas was a genuine apostle of Christ. For whatever reason, whether temptation of the devil, greed, or prophecy fulfillment, Judas betrayed Jesus.

Judas heard everything Jesus said, saw the miracles, became a believer, and was told he'd inherit eternal life. Judas exercised authority over demons and healed the sick. In the end, Judas hanged himself, left the apostolic ministry, then went where be belonged... probably not heaven if I had to guess. God is the judge.

Your options are:
1. Judas is OSAS
2. Judas lost his salvation

3. That Judas was never a believer lacks any scriptural support so it's a moot point.

1. I see that you continue to double down on your eisegesis.

Assumption and eisegesis.

I am not persuaded by your assumptions or your eisegesis. I've heard all of your same arguments about Judas before from unbelievers who teach salvation by works, including Roman Catholics and Mormons.

Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet you call that a believer who lost his salvation. Judas never had salvation.

I have already provided scriptural support, but you just refuse to see it.

In regards to Judas being chosen, in John 13:18, we read - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; BUT that the scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.' By Jesus choosing Judas does not mean that Judas was saved and Judas was not included in those "whom the Father gave to Jesus to be kept."

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."

The truth is plain for you to see if you were just willing to see it. Bias and indoctrination is hard to get past for many.

Ditto, but all of your points on many things in the Bible contradict the scripture.

For me it's quite simple how exegesis works: if the Bible says it then I believe it. See how easy that is? Jesus told the 12 disciples that they would have 12 thrones and eternal life. What's so hard about that? Jesus gave the 12 authority over demons and authority to heal and then they went and did it. What's so hard about that?

Where you go off the rails is actually the very things you're claiming I do. Your claim is Judas didn't follow Jesus which is false. Judas was a disciple... he was a student, a learner, a follower. You're claiming Judas didn't get eternal life when Jesus said he did. You're claiming because they went out "two by two" then that means Judas was somehow not given any authority. I don't know if you knew this, but having a partner in the gospel isn't required for God to use someone to cast out demons and heal the sick.

Keep this passage in mind:

Matthew 7
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

So do you know the difference between a true and false disciple? It isn't just being a believer, like Judas, then everything is hunky dory, it's about doing God's will.

Do you honestly know what God's will is?