Conclusion From Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine 4

Context does suggest the Church that has been being addressed for the last two chapters. I also like how 4:1 explains what the sound of the Rapture Trumpet is. Not everything in Revelation is in chronological order, but I think this is.

Revelation 4:1
“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.”

The first thing John sees is the (pre-trib) Rapture.

Already have. Dozens and dozens of times. Posties always want to hear it over and over again.....only to ignore it after it is presented.

The fact is: pre-tribbers have all the answers dear friend. Posties always come up woefully short.

I have yet to see an entrenched pretibber put forth a scripturally-based argument.
All I see is butchery of scripture, circular reasoning & a heavy reliance on extra-biblical tradition.


2nd coming resurrection-believers come up short in your view because we are not assuming pretrib to be true as you are.
You expect pretrib to be the starting point, the standard we must use. It is not.

I have yet to see an entrenched pretibber put forth a scripturally-based case.
All I see is butchery of scripture, circular reasoning & a heavy reliance on extra-biblical tradition.

Again? I don't believe the 24 elders have anything to do with rapture timing.
State why you think the 24 elders are evidence of a pretrib rapture if that's what you think they are.

2nd coming resurrection-believers come up short in your view

If part of the church goes through the tribulation, will they have to resist the mark of the beast? Will they have to endure to the end to be saved?

You seemed pretty well silenced in a previous debate when you were pressed to offer some actual evidence for pretrib.

I am a Second Coming Resurrection believer myself. The Tribulation Saints are resurrected after the Tribulation, but that is not the Rapture. That is not for the Church. The Church is returning form Heaven with Christ at that time.

And yet you cannot comprehend the identity of the 24 elders. Nor make any substantial countervailing argument supporting your view.

Another failure to rightly divide the nation of Israel and the body of Christ.

The elders that John spoke with in heaven at least 1900 years BEFORE the rapture?

Rom 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from G1537 the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from G1537 the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Game set match bro. Whether you can wrap your head around that or not.

Hint: ALL trib saints DIE before they are resurrected. All OT saints are ALREADY DEAD then are resurrected. Living believers and Israelites DO NOT GET RAPTURED at the SC.....they go on to populate planet earth.

ONLY the Church (those alive at the pre-trib rapture event) gets translated while still in their mortal bodies!

????

Did you not realize that these things are yet future?

Enduring in faith is required in our own time.

I Corinthians 15
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain

Hebrews 3:14
“For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end.”

????

Did you not realize that these things are yet future?

Yes.

Enduring in faith is required in our own time.

I Corinthians 15
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain

Hebrews 3:14
“For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end.”

If one recognizes the distinction, there is still no evidence FROM THE BIBLE for a pretrib rapture of the church.

Pretribbers take some verses about the Lord's coming and say 'This refers to the pretrib rapture' and take others and say 'This refers to the second coming.' But they do not present proof that there are two comings of Christ or that the rapture happens seven years before Jesus returns. In fact, the rapture passage, I Thessalonians 4, sets the rapture at Jesus' coming, not seven years before His coming. And in II Thessalonians 2, the lawless one is destroyed at the brightness of His coming.

The fact that pre-tribbers have to resort to the highly allegorical interpretation of John being told to 'come up hither' as some kind of allegory for the rapture shows how weak the theory is. If you will notice, there are trumpets AFTER this one mentioned in Revelation, and the transformation happens 'at the last trump'.

My question for you is why you are pre-trib? You aren't showing a clear case for it from scripture. You are saying this verse is about a pre-trib event, but with no evidence that it is pretrib, except for this wild allegorical interpretation that doesn't fit.

Why not just let go of pre-trib? Why not stop treating the pretrib scenario as if it were holy and axiomatically true like scripture, and look at what the Bible actually teaches about the end times?

The 'first resurrection' comes toward the ___end__ of the book of Revelation, not at the beginning.

If one recognizes the distinction, there is still no evidence FROM THE BIBLE for a pretrib rapture of the church.

Pretribbers take some verses about the Lord's coming and say 'This refers to the pretrib rapture' and take others and say 'This refers to the second coming.' But they do not present proof that there are two comings of Christ or that the rapture happens seven years before Jesus returns. In fact, the rapture passage, I Thessalonians 4, sets the rapture at Jesus' coming, not seven years before His coming. And in II Thessalonians 2, the lawless one is destroyed at the brightness of His coming.