Conclusion From Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine 4

[cv5]

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:24, 27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

A different category of the elect....these being the remaining Israelite "earth dwellers" who have survived the GT.

The Church is already in heaven seen in Rev Chapters 4 & 5.

Survivors of the gentiles ARE NOT gathered to the land of Israel. Only the house of Jacob. The surviving gentiles set up their own nations as seen later on in Revelation.

 

[jb]

“Taken”

Great action movie staring Liam Neeson!

 

[presidente]

Yes He will, but that is not the Rapture spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4.

Here is a verse concerning your post-tribulation resurrection event:

Revelation 20:4
“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

This is not the Rapture event spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4.

Why not? He does not say that only the beheaded were included. Why would you think a mass resurrection of the saints occurs before the 'first resurrection'. That doesn't make sense.

The main thing is, where is there any evidence at all that Jesus comes back twice, one time before the tribulation, or that he raptures the church before the tribulation. The church will be in tribulation when Jesus returns according to II Thessalonians 1, since He gives the church (of the Thessalonians) rest when He returns, executing vengeance on them that known not God, when he comes to be glorified in them that believe.

That doesn't fit with pretrib, which has Jesus coming twice, once to give the saints rest, then the unbelievers experience a bit of peace and safety for a while, then after tribulation, pre-trib has Jesus returning again. Where is this extra return of Christ taught? Paul writes about the parousia as if it is one thing, not two events.

God is preparing His Bride for a wedding, not a bloodbath. Many Christians are enduring trials right now. God will not pour out His Tribulation wrath upon His Bride. Part of Israel will not be ready. It is they who God will carry through the Tribulation. As for His Church bride...

Look up 'suffering' in the New Testament, and 'tribulation.' Jesus said in this world ye shall have tribulation. Paul says if we suffer with him we shall reign with him. Revelation has positive things to say about those who come out of great tribulation. Jesus warned His disciples about great tribulation, and the coming of the Son of man which happens after it. He taught them to watch and be ready with the coming of the Son of man. This is inconsistent with the pretrib rapture idea, and nowhere does scripture teach that the rapture is pretrib.

John 14:
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

[/quote]

Do you reject the idea that the deceased go to heaven at death? Have you read the end of the book of Revelation where the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven? Why would the rapture have to be pretrib for this passage to be fulfilled? Why can't it be fulfilled in line with what the Bible actually teaches?

Nowhere in the Bible does it speak of any Rapture event after the Tribulation. The Tribulation Saints are resurrected, but not raptured up to heaven for the Marriage.

Nowhere in the Bible does it speak of any Rapture event BEFORE the Tribulation. The rapture passage tells us that the rapture occurs just after the resurrection of the dead in Christ. Revelation sets the 'first resurrection' at the __end__ of the book, AFTER describing the tribulation.

The 'rapture' is referred to as 'caught up' in one verse. In II Thessalonians 2:1, it is called the gathering. It speaks of the coming of the Lord and our gathering to him. Don't you, like most pre-tribbers, equate this with the rapture? Matthew 24 also tells us of the coming of the Son of man after the tribulation, that He shall send forth his angels to ___gather___ the elect.

There is explicit evidence for postrib, but none for pretrib in scripture.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The main thing is, where is there any evidence at all that Jesus comes back twice, one time before the tribulation, or that he raptures the church before the tribulation.

The church will be in tribulation when Jesus returns according to II Thessalonians 1, since He gives the church (of the Thessalonians) rest when He returns, executing vengeance on them that known not God, when he comes to be glorified in them that believe.

I hate to say this... but you keep doing it, so I want to point this out to the readers at least...

... What you are doing is smooshing clauses together and leaving out a vital part in the middle, which makes the sentence say something entirely other than what it actually conveys.

Instead, it reads more like the following (setting aside v.7 for the moment):

--"... In flaming fire inflicting vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ [<--that's the part, in red, I'm saying takes more than merely "a singular 24-hr day"... same as chpt 2 vv.10-12,9... during a PERIOD OF TIME]:
WHO SHALL [future tense] suffer the penalty of eternal destruction AWAY FROM THE PRESENCE of the Lord and from the glory of His power, WHEN He shall come to be glorified IN HIS SAINTS and to be... [<--this purple is the part that commences on a particular 24-hr day: at His Second Coming to the earth Rev19]

That doesn't fit with pretrib,

It doesn't even fit with what the text itself is conveying.

You have to chop up the sentence, leave parts out, and inject others before it'll say what you've suggested it says.

Again, you are smooshing together clauses to come up with a sentence the text itself doesn't convey.











[for the readers: again, compare the "in flame of fire / in flaming fire" with the similar language used in Lam2:3-4 (comp. 2Th2:7b-8a) regarding a PERIOD OF TIME and recognize the "7 angels" with Trumpets and "7 angels" with Vials in Revelation transpire over the course of SOME TIME; recognize that Rev1:1 [/1:19c / 4:1 "SHOW"] states, "[TO SHOW UNTO]... things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (not over the course of some 2000 years since the first century!) which corresponds with the same time-frame of the "AVENGE IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" in Lk18:8 and also what is stated in Rom16:20 (this, addressed to the Church which is His body) "shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" as well as noting what 1Cor6:3[14] states, "know ye not that WE SHALL JUDGE ANGELS?" (recalling the "sitting on thrones" of what one of the first things John is "SHOWN" in Rev5 just prior to when Jesus is shown "STANDING" to JUDGE [Is3:13] by His opening the FIRST SEAL at the START of the 7-yr period ["IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"] commonly called "the tribulation period" aka when "the Day of the Lord" commences to unfold upon the earth with its JUDGMENTS...]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

which has Jesus coming twice, once to give the saints rest, then the unbelievers experience a bit of peace and safety for a while, then after tribulation, pre-trib has Jesus returning again.

[re: the bold] No they don't "experience a bit of peace and safety for a while"...

Instead, they experience the "in flaming fire INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON" and the part about (in 2Th2:10-12,9) "God shall SEND TO THEM strong delusion SO THAT THEY SHALL BELIEVE the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI..." for a PERIOD OF TIME [i.e. the Trib yrs with its "man of sin"... and "Seals / Trumpets / Vials" (i.e. JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth) before Christ's RETURN to the earth in Rev19]




--again, throughout Scripture, wherever the phrases "the Day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" are used in close proximity [/same contexts--as they are here used in these 2 chpts], they are referring to the SAME TIME PERIOD

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

... and let the readers note also that, by its saying "when He shall come TO BE glorified IN HIS SAINTS [and to be...]," that is not the same thing as saying "TO GLORIFY His saints," see... (the text states the former, not the latter of these... v.10)

 

[Pilgrimshope]

He is preparing a place in Heaven where the wedding will take place - once we all receive our glorified bodies at the time of the (pre-trib) Rapture. Note the phrase "when I come again". He is referring to a future event. He will come in clouds at the pre-trib Rapture. Seven years later, we will return with Him to Earth and witness the resurrection of the Tribulation Saints and enter into the Millennial Reign.


He gathers their souls from Heaven and their bodies from Earth at the time of the pre-trib Rapture. The Trib Saints have souls in Heaven, but their bodies do not go up in any post-trib rapture.

Brother you’ve lost me what I’m asking is what is the “pre trib rapture “in your mind ?

if it isn’t when Jesus gathers his elect people from earth after the tribulation like he said what’s the so called “ pre trib rapture ?”

This is what Jesus said and where the idea of the great tribulation comes at all

“And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

And ye shall hear ( because the church will be one earth ) of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled don’t be troubled though ) for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.


All these are the beginning of sorrows.


Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. ( he’s not telling them they’ll be raptured he’s preparing them to endure whatever comes )

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. ( not that they will not go through it all but that they need to stand from through it endure )

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; ( the church has to still be on earth because that’s who preaches the gospel in the world ) and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:4-10, 12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

ado you see how Jesus is making very clear hey are going to endure a lot of tribulation and sorrows and persecutions in this world ? And he’s never saying “ I’m going to raptire you before all this happens instead the opposite he says this to his followers in the everlasting gospel

“But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. ( he has prepared them to endure by forewarning then it would come upon them but thy y are told to endure and keep faith in matter what )

But in those days, after that tribulation, ( you keep saying there’s no scripture to support a post tribulation rapture but Jesus is plainly telling them they will endure all this and then after he will return to gather his people those who were in heaven and those left on earth )

the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall,( creation is being undone because it’s judgement day )

and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:22-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

At what point did he rapture them? There’s some of his people on earth still because they hadn’t lived and died yet and some in heaven already because they died in the lord and entered heavens kingdom

“And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

They are blessed because they are entering the kingdom in the body of Christ when they die

Paul’s talking about the one and only event when christ returns to gather his people t the end of the world. he’s talking about not worrying about people who died before us and so he is explaining that Gods going to bring them back with him and then those still alive on earth be gathered up together in the air with Jesus and all those who died before us en Jesus returns from heaven at the restoration of creation

“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:

and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:14-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I don’t think there’s a single scripture in the Bible that teaches anything else but what Christ established and be gays clearly he will return at the end of the world to gather his elect people from all nations whether they were still alive on earth or had passed away hundreds of years before and were waiting in the kingdom with him because they had already lived life chose the gospel and died in faith

There is no pre tribulation rapture brother Jesus only spoke of the great tribulation to prepare believers to endure and not give up through whatever trials they face on this life no matter what comes he was telling them hold on to faith in me and I’ll deliver you into eternal life

We have to live as Christian’s in this world

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and so we should all embrace the situation

“These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”
‭‭John‬ ‭16:33‬ ‭

Worldly trials and tribulations are just part of existing in a wicked world and it’s perpetual until he ends it

the pre tribulation rapture would disprove everything the Bible says really and it seems like if it was a thing it would just say hat in scripture

wheres the verses that say plainly anything like “before the tribulation I just told you you would surely endure in this world , I’ll come and gather you so your not on earth to endure the tribulation ?

Surely there would be one single clear verse saying that since there’s many explaining post tribulation gathering of the church

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

if it isn’t when Jesus gathers his elect people from earth after the tribulation like he said

But that's not what He said.

In Matthew 24, it says He shall SEND HIS ANGELS... and THEY shall gather together His elect from the four winds [that is, from where they've been "scattered" (judicially scattered)], from the ends of the heavens to the ends of them [i.e. from the extremities... no place left out]"... which corresponds with what was already prophesied in Isaiah 27:12-13,9 [<--note WHO... and IN WHAT MANNER they are gathered... and TO WHERE--that is, gathered [ONE by ONE] to one place upon the earth!]... and notice how v.9 correlates with both Rom11:26 and Dan9:24 [<--this latter verse, a time-prophecy also specifically re: "THY [Daniel's] people, and THY [Daniel's] holy city"]



No one is being "harpazo'd / snatched [TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR]" in any of these texts. = )





[I just read someone's post on a different discussion board, saying (basically) that Pre-tribbers believe "the elect" of this Matt24 passage refers to UNSAVED people of Israel... NOT SO [Pre-tribbers DO NOT believe that!]... These "elect" will have come to faith in Christ DURING the Trib yrs... that's part of the PURPOSE of the Tribulation period, aka the 70th Week of Daniel; AFTER the Trib (for them to [supposedly] come to faith [THEN]) IS TOO LATE!!]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

how v.9 [of Isa27] correlates with both Rom11:26

sry... "correlates with both Rom11:26b-27 and..."







Isa27:9a - "9Therefore Jacob’s guilt will be atoned for,

and the full fruit of the removal of his sin will be this:c"


Footnotes: [...]
9 c LXX Therefore the guilt of Jacob will be taken away, and this is his blessing when I take away his sin ; cited in Romans 11:27


-- https://biblehub.com/bsb/isaiah/27.htm

 

[oyster67]

Brother you’ve lost me what I’m asking is what is the “pre trib rapture “in your mind ?

if it isn’t when Jesus gathers his elect people from earth after the tribulation like he said what’s the so called “ pre trib rapture ?”

The pre-trib rapture means the rapture happens before the 7-years of Tribulation begin.

The scripture you are quoting is Mark 13:27? (Tell me if otherwise.)
Mark 13:27
“And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”

You are absolutely correct that this is referring to the "those days after the Tribulation". It is referring to the Second Coming. This has nothing to do with any Rapture.

This is when all Israel shall be delivered and enter into the Millenial Reign.

This is also when the tribulation saints who have turned to Christ (and been killed) shall be resurrected. Their souls are gathered from heaven and their dead bodies from wherever they died on earth.

This is not the Rapture. The Church Bride was raptured seven years prior and would be returning with Christ at this time of the Second Coming.

1 Thess 4 and Mark 13:27 are referring to two separate and distinct events separated by 7 years.

 

[presidente]

[re: the bold] No they don't "experience a bit of peace and safety for a while"...

Instead, they experience the "in flaming fire INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON" and the part about (in 2Th2:10-12,9) "God shall SEND TO THEM strong delusion SO THAT THEY SHALL BELIEVE the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI..." for a PERIOD OF TIME [i.e. the Trib yrs with its "man of sin"... and "Seals / Trumpets / Vials" (i.e. JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth) before Christ's RETURN to the earth in Rev19]




--again, throughout Scripture, wherever the phrases "the Day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" are used in close proximity [/same contexts--as they are here used in these 2 chpts], they are referring to the SAME TIME PERIOD

Do you mean the day when the Lord returns and gives the church rest from tribulation spiken of in II Thessalonians 1?

 

[presidente]

I hate to say this... but you keep doing it, so I want to point this out to the readers at least...

... What you are doing is smooshing clauses together and leaving out a vital part in the middle, which makes the sentence say something entirely other than what it actually conveys.

I don't quote the whole verse sometimes because I'm tying it on a cell phone, which has digital buttons made for a middle schooler or dainty female, not a man with a full-grown thumb like myself.

Give me one example of where my non-exhaustive description of the passage makes the sentence say something entirely other than what it conveys.

Instead, it reads more like the following (setting aside v.7 for the moment):

--"... In flaming fire inflicting vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ [<--that's the part, in red, I'm saying takes more than merely "a singular 24-hr day"... same as chpt 2 vv.10-12,9... during a PERIOD OF TIME]:
WHO SHALL [future tense] suffer the penalty of eternal destruction AWAY FROM THE PRESENCE of the Lord and from the glory of His power, WHEN He shall come to be glorified IN HIS SAINTS and to be... [<--this purple is the part that commences on a particular 24-hr day: at His Second Coming to the earth Rev19]

Again, show me one example of where I omit something where it changes the meaning. Your commentary is not in the verse. It says nothing about a 24 hour day. You write long posts. Your meaning is unclear, as it is here.

If you are trying to make the point that the future tense (in translation) somehow sets this at a different time than the rest of the passage, your editting here and your comments try to make the passage say something different from what it says.

Actually ἔλθῃ is aorist subjunctive active. How do you get two time frames from the verbs used in the passage? You can look at the verbs used, or the glosses in an interlinear. You made a rather declarative statement about the minute differences of Greek words in a previous discussion. I repeatedly pressed you for information about your expertise in Greek, which you dodged. So you can look up the Greek or the interlinear and tell me if you see two separate time-frames based on the Greek verbs used in this passage and explain why you think they happen at different times and why it is misleading if it is the case.


7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

It doesn't even fit with what the text itself is conveying.

You have to chop up the sentence, leave parts out, and inject others before it'll say what you've suggested it says.

Again, you are smooshing together clauses to come up with a sentence the text itself doesn't convey.

Again explain yourself and show how the passage could possible be interpreted to put those things as separate time frames, or whatever other objection you have that you aren't making clear.

[for the readers: again, compare the "in flame of fire / in flaming fire" with the similar language used in Lam2:3-4 (comp. 2Th2:7b-8a)

The first passage reverenced has to do with flaming fire against Jacob. The second passage shows that the lawless one will be destroyed at the brightness of His coming. Again, none of this fits with pretrib.

If we read about the Lord's parousia, we see that:

- The dead are raised and they are raptured with we which are alive and remain to meet the Lord in the air.
- The Lord comes with His saints
- The lawless one is destroyed at the brightness of his coming.

II Thessalonians 2:1 uses otan elthei.... when He shall come.. rather than parousia. But all the different things clustered there together do not fit with pre-trib.

If you try to stretch the passage to try to figure out a way for it to fit with pre-trib and present your case, that is not evidence for pre-trib. You haven't shown a passage that indicates that Jesus returns twice or that our Lord will hang around in the sky for seven years.

regarding a PERIOD OF TIME and recognize the "7 angels" with Trumpets and "7 angels" with Vials in Revelation transpire over the course of SOME TIME; recognize that Rev1:1 [/1:19c / 4:1 "SHOW"] states, "[TO SHOW UNTO]... things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (not over the course of some 2000 years since the first century!) which corresponds with the same time-frame of the "AVENGE IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" in Lk18:8 and also what is stated in Rom16:20 (this, addressed to the Church which is His body) "shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" as well as noting what 1Cor6:3[14] states, "know ye not that WE SHALL JUDGE ANGELS?" (recalling the "sitting on thrones" of what one of the first things John is "SHOWN" in Rev5 just prior to when Jesus is shown "STANDING" to JUDGE [Is3:13] by His opening the FIRST SEAL at the START of the 7-yr period ["IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"] commonly called "the tribulation period" aka when "the Day of the Lord" commences to unfold upon the earth with its JUDGMENTS...]

What is your point? How does it relate to what you wrote to me above? This reads as eschatological stream-of-consciousness with a bunch of capitals and brackets thrown in to make it harder to understand your point.

 

[presidente]

The pre-trib rapture means the rapture happens before the 7-years of Tribulation begin.

The scripture you are quoting is Mark 13:27? (Tell me if otherwise.)
Mark 13:27
“And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”

You are absolutely correct that this is referring to the "those days after the Tribulation". It is referring to the Second Coming. This has nothing to do with any Rapture.

This is when all Israel shall be delivered and enter into the Millenial Reign.

This is also when the tribulation saints who have turned to Christ (and been killed) shall be resurrected. Their souls are gathered from heaven and their dead bodies from wherever they died on earth.

This is not the Rapture. The Church Bride was raptured seven years prior and would be returning with Christ at this time of the Second Coming.

1 Thess 4 and Mark 13:27 are referring to two separate and distinct events separated by 7 years.

Where do you get the idea that I Thessalonians 4 is talking about a separate event from the OTHER eschatological events mentioned in scripture?

I Thessalonians 4 tells us that at the parousia, translated 'coming' of the Lord, the dead in Christ shall rise first and we which are alive and remain will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. What is your basis for saying that is a separate parousia from the one mentioned in the rest of the Bible?

If you look at II Thessalonians 2, that lawless one is destroyed at the brightness of the parousia of the Lord. That doesn't fit with pre-trib, because it would have the man of sin destroyed before he is revealed or declares himself to be god.

Matthew 24 sets the parousia of the Son of man AFTER the tribulation.

Why should we tear I Thessalonians 4 out of the Bible, separate it off from the rest of scripture and say it occurs at a different time from when other scriptures say the parousia happens? This really makes no sense. Do you have any evidence at all that there is more than one parousia of Christ predicted in scripture? Can't you see how nonsensical this pretrib interpretation is?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Where do you get the idea that I Thessalonians 4 is talking about a separate event from the OTHER eschatological events mentioned in scripture?

I Thessalonians 4 tells us that at the parousia, translated 'coming' of the Lord, the dead in Christ shall rise first and we which are alive and remain will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. What is your basis for saying that is a separate parousia from the one mentioned in the rest of the Bible?

If you look at II Thessalonians 2, that lawless one is destroyed at the brightness of the parousia of the Lord. That doesn't fit with pre-trib, because it would have the man of sin destroyed before he is revealed or declares himself to be god.

Matthew 24 sets the parousia of the Son of man AFTER the tribulation.

Why should we tear I Thessalonians 4 out of the Bible, separate it off from the rest of scripture and say it occurs at a different time from when other scriptures say the parousia happens? This really makes no sense. Do you have any evidence at all that there is more than one parousia of Christ predicted in scripture? Can't you see how nonsensical this pretrib interpretation is?

a yeah that’s what I was trying to get at the only thing that says there’s going to be a pre tribulation raptire are the people that think it there’s no scriptire at all that creates that idea

pauls writings aren’t creating new things but revealing what Jesus said about things better to the church

This is established

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:24-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And these type of things are giving us insight into that that’s already established by the lord

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35, 44, 49-52‬ ‭

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:

and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”

‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul isnt an inventor of new doctrines but a revelator of the gospel Jesus preached he’s giving insight into the things Jesus said and are certain he’s giving us insight into what Jesus said in parables and vague language Paul’s giving us details about that event when Jesus returns to gather his people

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The pre-trib rapture means the rapture happens before the 7-years of Tribulation begin.

The scripture you are quoting is Mark 13:27? (Tell me if otherwise.)
Mark 13:27
“And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”

You are absolutely correct that this is referring to the "those days after the Tribulation". It is referring to the Second Coming. This has nothing to do with any Rapture.

This is when all Israel shall be delivered and enter into the Millenial Reign.

This is also when the tribulation saints who have turned to Christ (and been killed) shall be resurrected. Their souls are gathered from heaven and their dead bodies from wherever they died on earth.

This is not the Rapture. The Church Bride was raptured seven years prior and would be returning with Christ at this time of the Second Coming.

1 Thess 4 and Mark 13:27 are referring to two separate and distinct events separated by 7 years.

“This is not the Rapture. The Church Bride was raptured seven years prior and would be returning with Christ at this time of the Second Coming.”

So he’s coming three times ? once to bear sin like he already did , once to rapture the church and the. Once to gather his elect from earth and heaven ?

I thought the church was the elect ?

“Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭1:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

ado is there two seperate groups of Gods elect ?

Brother you get to heaven after you die that’s how people enter the kingdom of heaven

a you known that wedding you keep referring to ? The gospel is the invite it was first offered to israel

“The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: and the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.”( 67-70ad)
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:2-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then sent to all people e same invite to the wedding

“Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:

it’s just a reference to the calling of the gospel not a secret rapture



“1 Thess 4 and Mark 13:27 are referring to two separate and distinct events separated by 7 years.”

why do you think this though is what I was asking ? What I’m the Bible makes you think that ? It sounds more like the book “ left behind “

 

[Pilgrimshope]

But that's not what He said.

In Matthew 24, it says He shall SEND HIS ANGELS... and THEY shall gather together His elect from the four winds [that is, from where they've been "scattered" (judicially scattered)], from the ends of the heavens to the ends of them [i.e. from the extremities... no place left out]"... which corresponds with what was already prophesied in Isaiah 27:12-13,9 [<--note WHO... and IN WHAT MANNER they are gathered... and TO WHERE--that is, gathered [ONE by ONE] to one place upon the earth!]... and notice how v.9 correlates with both Rom11:26 and Dan9:24 [<--this latter verse, a time-prophecy also specifically re: "THY [Daniel's] people, and THY [Daniel's] holy city"]



No one is being "harpazo'd / snatched [TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR]" in any of these texts. = )





[I just read someone's post on a different discussion board, saying (basically) that Pre-tribbers believe "the elect" of this Matt24 passage refers to UNSAVED people of Israel... NOT SO [Pre-tribbers DO NOT believe that!]... These "elect" will have come to faith in Christ DURING the Trib yrs... that's part of the PURPOSE of the Tribulation period, aka the 70th Week of Daniel; AFTER the Trib (for them to [supposedly] come to faith [THEN]) IS TOO LATE!!]

Me

“if it isn’t when Jesus gathers his elect people from earth after the tribulation like he said”

you

“But that's not what He said.”

Jesus

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:24-27‬ ‭

Some of you refuse to acknolwedge and so we just argue and contend over things that are written down the same for everyone

The elect is the church

“Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Anyone who just reads and accepts what he’s the lord is saying

“For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: for false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. ( he’s warning them because they will be on earth during this time )

But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:19-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Can understand what Paul’s talking about here

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35, 44, 49-52‬ ‭

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:

and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJ

to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”

‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

some are in heaven already some will be alive on earth in that last generation when Jesus returns. Like lot Jesus is going to appear and Ferber all his people and then fire is going to destroy the earth completely

“Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; but the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭17:28-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Just like the story of lot , The same day the church is “raptured “ the same day fire will reign from heaven Paul’s giving us revelation of what Jesus said they all go together to give us understanding

 

[oyster67]

Where do you get the idea that I Thessalonians 4 is talking about a separate event from the OTHER eschatological events mentioned in scripture?

Because we must go up before we can be glorified and attend our wedding and then return 7 years later. Pre-trib works out, post-trib does not. The Marriage takes place in Heaven, not on Earth. (Rev 19, John 14).

 

[presidente]

Because we must go up before we can be glorified and attend our wedding and then return 7 years later. Pre-trib works out, post-trib does not.

I am talking about what the Bible teaches, not pre-trib add ons.

The Marriage takes place in Heaven, not on Earth. (Rev 19, John 14).

Why would an announcement about the wedding feast be made at the end of a seven-year feast if the feast had already happened? The announcement about the wedding feast is write before this passage about Jesus on a white horse, which we would both agree is a second coming passage. Right after it, we see the first resurrection. I take the wedding feast to occur after Jesus collects His bride, the events after the announcement, not before it.

John 14 doesn't prove your point either.

 

[cv5]

Where do you get the idea that I Thessalonians 4 is talking about a separate event from the OTHER eschatological events mentioned in scripture?

Ahhmmmm....fulfillment of prophecy. Daniel's 70 weeks to be precise.

And Christ's own promise per John 14. Which book, written to the Church, ends with our final redemption, with NO MENTION of 70th week wrath whatsoever.

In fact the Church MUST BE raptured BEFORE the Tribulation can ever begin. And we will be.

The Scripture ALWAYS states that we, the Bride, the Body, receive and are in a state of rest, comfort, relief......during the time of the Tribulation.

All of this concatenates perfectly with the ultimate book of end-time things, Revelation. Where we, the Church, are ILLUSTRATED to be IN HEAVEN in Chapters 4 & 5. Before the man of sin is ever "revealed" in chapter 6.

BTW.....the "snatch" the "harpazo" by the Spirit (to heaven) is certainly biblical. Nothing unusual there.....

Act 8:39
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away G726 Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

2Co 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up G726 to the third heaven.

2Co 12:4
How that he was caught up G726 into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up G726 together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up G726 unto God, and to his throne.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

oyster67 said: The Marriage takes place in Heaven, not on Earth. (Rev 19, John 14).

Why would an announcement about the wedding feast be made at the end of a seven-year feast if the feast had already happened?

Notice that oyster67 had said "THE MARRIAGE" is in Heaven... He did NOT say "the marriage FEAST / SUPPER" is in Heaven. They are distinct things, pertaining to distinct characters in the plot, see.

--"The MARRIAGE" (up in Heaven) pertains to the "Bride / Wife [SINGULAR; Rev19:7]" (...presently "betrothed" per 2Cor11:2... "A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR]")

--"the marriage FEAST / SUPPER / FESTIVITIES" pertains to the "GuestS [PLURAL]" (Rev19:9) and the "10 [or 5] VirginS [/BridesmaidS - PLURAL]" (Matt25:10) etc etc... whom He is NOT "MARRYING"... (also "the FRIEND of the Bridegroom" and so on...) and is located ON THE EARTH--commencing upon His "RETURN" there / to THE EARTH--and IS "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom," or at least its inauguration (which is what you are calling as 'being announced,' so to speak, at the Rev19 time-slot, just b/f His "RETURN" there, to the earth at that time)--The text itself only states, "BLESSED are those [pl.] HAVING BEEN INVITED [perfect participle] TO the marriage SUPPER of the Lamb" (corresponding with about 8 other "BLESSED" texts referring to this SAME time-slot and setting/circumstances... and location [that is, ON THE EARTH; see also "the MEAL [G347]" for example in Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 parallel Matt24:42-51... as well as this word used in Matt8:11 and parallel, referring to the earthly MK age]); This means that the "INVITING" process has been completed at the Rev19 point in time... Now it's time for the CELEBRATION (with "guests" and "bridesmaids" etc etc)