Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

presidente said:

My post was about comments made previously in the thread. My post was a 'what if', but if people think everyone born during the thousand year period is 'not saved', I see no justification for such speculation. That's my point.

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My point is about what the Bible says and doesn't say.

Bible says: during the Tribulation men REFUSE TO REPENT. Rev 16:9,11. Rev 20:11-14 shows the nations gathering around Jerusalem to attack it.

Bible doesn't say: there are saved people during the MK, or there will be another resurrection of the MK saved.

A man of a hundred will be a young man.

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Yes, the Bible does say that.

The Bible says 'And so all Israel shall be saved....'

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What is the context? Christ's return to earth, where He saves Israel from the antichrist's attack.

And there is this from Jeremiah 31

29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

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So, what do you think Jeremiah meant here?

If you read this type of language elsewhere in the Old Testament, do you think every individual in the nation marches out?

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I have no idea.

This is from Revelation 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (NKJV)

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This is the judgment of the unsaved. Those who never believed and therefore never received the gift of eternal life. ALL of them will be cast into the LOF.

presidente said:

It also says in Romans 11 that all Israel shall be saved.

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Do you think Paul had end of MK in mind or Second Advent return of Christ? A big difference.

I suppose they will raise them in an environment being ruled with a rod of iron, in which the Devil is not deceiving the nations.

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Read Matt 5, where Jesus describes how He will rule in the MK. Rather than ruling by the letter of the Law, He will rule by the spirit of the Law.

iow, the letter of the Law means a person will be judged for murder AFTER he/she murders someone.

But, with the spirit of the Law, hatred is the common motivator of murder, so those who hate another will be held accountable for murder.

21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’
22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca ,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

31 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’
32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

presidente said:

But what if the second coming already happens before the mass conversion? I don't see a scripture that places their conversion on one side or the other of it.

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You don't consider "the 144,000" (12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel named in Rev7) as those who've been "converted" (i.e. believers), prior to His Second Coming to the earth Rev19? Just asking. = )

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you think Paul had end of MK in mind or Second Advent return of Christ? A big difference.

presidente said:

I am not sure how that will play out. It could be there is a mass conversion before the second coming, and all the tribes of the land look on Him Whom they have pierced and mourn for Him. But what if the second coming already happens before the mass conversion? I don't see a scripture that places their conversion on one side or the other of it. Of course, there are Jews being saved these days also.

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Since there is no evidence of conversions during the MK or a resurrection at the end of the MK, I believe Paul had in mind the Second Advent.

presidente said:

I don't know if the number of converts will be limited to that. There might be some Jews who believe who get married and have sex, for example.

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Yeah, I tried to edit my post to reflect the fact that I didn't intend for it to sound as though I meant they are the ONLY ones (of Israel), but that they'd be among those of Israel who are [that is, will be] "converted" (become believers)...


I am one who believes the phrase "the least of these My brethren" (Matt25:40,45) also speaks to this point, in that, they are not the ones BEING judged/separated in the Sheep and goat judgment of the nationS (Matthew 25:31-34 and context--the Sheep being called "ye BLESSED" [and "the righteous"], and the goats being called "ye CURSED"--whereas "the least of these My brethren" not being the ones judged/separated here, are a distinct group from either of those);

...and I am one who sees correlation between what is stated in Rev7:9 ("a great multitude... of all the nations...") to that of the message which will be going forth in / during the trib years: Matthew 24:14 [26:13], which says, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness UNTO ALL THE NATIONS..."; so this makes me sit up and take notice of the way in which "the 144,000" (of ONE nation--singular--that is, Israel) in Rev7 is set in contradistinction to the "a great multitude... of all the nations" of that same chapter, of whom it is said, "these are they coming out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (i.e. saved persons... ones who will have heard and received the message [Matt24:14 / 26:13] and as a result trusted Christ for their salvation); I believe Matt22:9-13 reflects same... as does Matt25:31-34 and context (i.e. the results, so to speak)...

presidente said:

In pre-tribulational rapture teaching, is Jesus supposed to come as a 'thief in the night' at the rapture, the second coming, or both?


I don't see multiple returns of Christ in scripture, so I can't make the distinction since I don't see it in scripture. But what does pre-trib eschatology say about this?

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Jesus comes as a thief in the night because many think he is already here. Satan will come first, before Jesus, claiming to be him. II Thes 2:3-4. Satan will deceive many with his false doctrine and miracles. People will worship him thinking he is God. If you are deceived into thinking Satan is God, you won't be looking for the real Jesus to return because you think he is already here. Thus he will come as a thief in the night finding you in bed with Satan.

presidente said:

In pre-tribulational rapture teaching, is Jesus supposed to come as a 'thief in the night' at the rapture, the second coming, or both?


I don't see multiple returns of Christ in scripture, so I can't make the distinction since I don't see it in scripture. But what does pre-trib eschatology say about this?

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Revelation 3:10 talks about a Pretrib rapture while Revelation 3:3 talks about those believers who will be left behind.

Dean4u2c said:

Jesus comes as a thief in the night

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Wrong. Jesus NEVER said that. Jesus tells us (the Church) that He is "coming as a thief". Period.

This fits perfectly with the Jewish wedding ceremony imagery, where the SECOND PHASE is that of the Groom coming to "harpazo" aka "snatch" his bride. (The first phase is the betrothal the final stage the wedding supper). This is the RAPTURE.

In fact it is the DOTL that comes as a thief in the night, the night meaning THE GREAT TRIBULATION period. And we are not on the earth at that point, we have ALREADY been taken to the Fathers house........as Jesus has promised us he will. Again, this fits perfectly with the HARPAZO SEQUENCE where the Bride is taken to the Fathers house for a 7 day (7 year) honeymoon time of intimacy. This while the tribulation wrath is unleashed on the earth upon the earth-dwellers.

Jhn 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


1Th 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2Pe 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

presidente said:

Look at Revelation 16. Do you think this is talking about the pre-trib rapture?


15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

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why would you? It seems this is referring to the situation after the bowls have been poured out right before Armageddon.

The term "pre trib" is not scriptural and "pre 70th week" is also not scriptural. Revelation 3:10 says they would be kept out of the hour of trial which is to come on the whole earth.

Based on 2Thessalonians I interpret the AntiChrist will not be fully revealed until after the rapture.

So there is a "Pre full revelation of the Antichrist" rapture. There is a "Pre hour of trial" rapture.

However, everything that I read suggests 1/6th of the genuine believers get raptured before this hour of trial. That means that 5/6th don't. So people who think that there is no "pre trib" rapture are at least 80% right, and those that think all the Christians will be taken before the tribulation are clearly wrong.

presidente said:

Look at Revelation 16. Do you think this is talking about the pre-trib rapture?


15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

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Right before the 7th Vial? No, I don't think so...

presidente said:

Where do you get that form. II Thessalonians 2 describes what happens-- Christ returns, gives the church rest, executing judgment on them that believe not, when he comes to be glorified in them believe... in 'that day.' Then it says in chapter 2 that the day of Christ will not happen until there be a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed.

Pre-trib doesn't follow that. instead of judgment being carried out when Jesus returns for the saints, there is a time of peace, then judgments poured out years later.

Also, I Thessalonians4 tells us the rapture happens at Jesus coming. Then II Thessalonians 2 sets the destruction of 'that wicked' at the brightness of his coming. In the book of Revelation, the beast is dealt with at the end of the tribulation, not before it.



Where do you get that only some of those who are Christ's will be raptured? Do you have scripture or is what you read some other kind of book?

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I don't subscribe to your "pre trib" definition.

Every believer will experience trials and have to go take up their cross and follow the Lord. However, we are not appointed to wrath, so no believer will go through the great tribulation.

The period prior to the Great tribulation starting will see many Christians get beheaded for refusing to take the mark of the beast. I consider that to be "the hour of trial which is coming on the whole earth" and which Philadelphia is kept from.

There is nothing that says Philadelphia or anyone else is kept from "tribulation" rather they are kept from the hour of trial. Also there is nothing that says the tribulation is 7 years long. The 70th week in Daniel is 7 years long and people have equated that with the tribulation, but that is an assumption.

I believe that the verse which says that we know He who restrains and when He steps out of the way then the man of sin will be revealed. So I think the full revelation of the Antichrist takes place after the rapture, and that the raptured saints are those who are one with the Holy Spirit to restrain Satan.

I think the term "pre trib" rapture is misleading. I have already made that point. There will be those who love the Lord's appearing and will receive a crown. There will be those who are kept out of the hour of trial. There are those spirit filled believers who are one with the Holy Spirit in restraining Satan and they will be raptured. But to assume that this all happens prior to the last seven years is not stated anywhere in the Bible.

presidente said:

Revelation
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Do you think these people are unbelievers, or that God will be angry at them?

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I believe they came out of great tribulation, but they did not experience the opening of the seventh seal, the seven trumpets or the pouring out of the seven bowls.

They may have experienced Satan's wrath but not God's wrath. Believers are delivered from the wrath to come.

1Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

There is a reason that God pours out His wrath on men, it is because they have forbidden believers to speak to Gentiles that they might be saved, and they killed Jesus and the prophets.

14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

Anyone who obtains salvation through Jesus Christ is not appointed to the wrath of God.

1Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

So by Satan's standards some will come out of "great tribulation" but the believers will not experience the wrath of God, which is the seventh seal, the seven trumpets and the seven bowls.

Mem said:

As you can be the same person but relate two different ways to two other people, so will Jesus' coming be. He is coming as a thief in the night to those that have an indifferent regard towards him and with healing in his wings to those who fear His Name.
Malachi 4:1-2
The Great Day of the LORD
“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace, when all the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble; the day is coming when I will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of Hosts. “Not a root or branch will be left to them.” 2“But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings, and you will go out and leap like calves from the stall.

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Yes... I tend to hold the post-trib view. If I am right, I pray I am a light, that I hold fast to Christ and not let go, and that I am a pain in the great dictator's butt.