Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?
- Thread starter presidente
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
In the eternal state, after the MK, heaven will come down to earth. 
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
Heaven is where God is.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
Heaven is where God is.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
In the eternal state, after the MK, heaven will come down to earth.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
Heaven is where God is.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
Heaven is where God is.
Question, you have unsaved mortals who enter the MK, they populate the earth with millions of people being born, and when the 1000yrs are finished everyone is still unsaved including all the children all those who join Israel and go up to Jerusalem to worship God? If this is your view then do you see the 1000yrs only purpose is too dramatically increase hells population?
If this is not your view and you do see at least one or more people being saved then when and how do you have these mortal believers receiving their glorified bodies?
If this is not your view and you do see at least one or more people being saved then when and how do you have these mortal believers receiving their glorified bodies?
No, I'm just following what the Bible says. Do you see anyone getting saved in the MK? I don't. btw, consider the reason that people will "go up to Jerusalem to worship God" could be just lip service to avoid the droughts that will come upon other countries that don't go up and worship. Not too difficult to imagine.
Also consider Rev 16:9,11 where people continued to "refuse to repent" in spite of God's wrath pouring down on them.
So it's those who "refuse to repent" who will populate the MK. How do you think their children will view the King?
And then, at the end of the MK, it appears from the text that the whole world is involved in attacking Jerusalem.
Rev 20-
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Seems pretty clear to me.
That's the problem; there is no mention of any other resurrection or believers getting glorified bodies during or after the MK. None.
I'm satisfied with my view because it sticks with Scripture and doesn't go beyond what the Word says.
Also consider Rev 16:9,11 where people continued to "refuse to repent" in spite of God's wrath pouring down on them.
So it's those who "refuse to repent" who will populate the MK. How do you think their children will view the King?
And then, at the end of the MK, it appears from the text that the whole world is involved in attacking Jerusalem.
Rev 20-
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Seems pretty clear to me.
That's the problem; there is no mention of any other resurrection or believers getting glorified bodies during or after the MK. None.
I'm satisfied with my view because it sticks with Scripture and doesn't go beyond what the Word says.
You may not have assumed anything in particular; however, you are missing something - and, it may be found in the Greek...
They do in this case...
I did not say 'maybe'.
My use of the words "may be found" was not in the sense of "it might be found there"; rather, it was in the sense of "it is there to be found" - i.e. - if you look you will find it [there].
I will discuss the Greek in a later post.
I did not say 'maybe'.
My use of the words "may be found" was not in the sense of "it might be found there"; rather, it was in the sense of "it is there to be found" - i.e. - if you look you will find it [there].
I will discuss the Greek in a later post.
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
The word order in the Greek of the last part of the verse is G1342 G5037 G2532 G94:
G1342 - 'just'
G5037 - a primary particle (enclitic) of connection or addition; both or also (properly, as correlation of 2532)
G2532 - apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force
G94 - 'unjust'
There is no 'each' in this phrase; rather, it is more like [just] 'together with' [unjust].
both just and unjust together in the same singular resurrection
No, that is not what I meant. And, it is strictly looking at it from the perspective of the mortal [corruptible] body "dying" (ceasing to exist).
Now - "in pure 'legal' terms" - 'death' is separation of body and soul/spirit. Therefore - from this perspective - we might not say that death occurs during the 'change' - except that the soul/spirit is separated from the old body and joined to/with the new [glorified] body - (in a sense) - as it goes through the 'change'.
It is a matter of definition and perspective...
Now - "in pure 'legal' terms" - 'death' is separation of body and soul/spirit. Therefore - from this perspective - we might not say that death occurs during the 'change' - except that the soul/spirit is separated from the old body and joined to/with the new [glorified] body - (in a sense) - as it goes through the 'change'.
It is a matter of definition and perspective...
The answer is not in a single verse of scripture - you need to understand the seven 1000-year 'days' - to arrive at the proper conclusion.
There sure is a lot of 'could be' and 'imagination' in this statement...
Consider the possibility that those people don't actually survive the Wrath of God.
Well - I will suggest that the "rod of iron" that He will rule with might give them "an attitude adjustment"...
Not the whole world - read carefully.
Revelation 20:
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
What was that - in verse 9 - "and compassed the camp of the saints about" ???
Saints? Hmmm - who would that be - in a whole world having only unsaved people?
There sure is a lot of 'could be' and 'imagination' in this statement...
Consider the possibility that those people don't actually survive the Wrath of God.
Well - I will suggest that the "rod of iron" that He will rule with might give them "an attitude adjustment"...
Not the whole world - read carefully.
Revelation 20:
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
What was that - in verse 9 - "and compassed the camp of the saints about" ???Saints? Hmmm - who would that be - in a whole world having only unsaved people?
We know that is impossible, for this reason:
Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
From Acts 24:15 we know there will be a resurrection for the saved and for the unsaved. You think they will be at the same event.
Yet, Rev 20:5 and 6 PROVE that they are 1,000 years apart.
How else can you understand what "first" resurrection means? If both the saved and unsaved are at the same event, then what does "first" mean?
I believe that words have meaning. If there is a "first" resurrection that is for believing martyrs, then that means there WILL BE a second resurrection, which will be the one for the unsaved.
Also recall that 1 Cor 15:23 says very plainly that "those who belong to Christ" will be resurrected". "when He comes". So, this proves there will be a resurrection of all the saved at the same time. Combine that with Rev 20:5,6 and it is clear there will be TWO resurrections total, 1 for the saved and 1 for the unsaved, and they will be 1,000 years apart.
Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
From Acts 24:15 we know there will be a resurrection for the saved and for the unsaved. You think they will be at the same event.
Yet, Rev 20:5 and 6 PROVE that they are 1,000 years apart.
How else can you understand what "first" resurrection means? If both the saved and unsaved are at the same event, then what does "first" mean?
I believe that words have meaning. If there is a "first" resurrection that is for believing martyrs, then that means there WILL BE a second resurrection, which will be the one for the unsaved.
Also recall that 1 Cor 15:23 says very plainly that "those who belong to Christ" will be resurrected". "when He comes". So, this proves there will be a resurrection of all the saved at the same time. Combine that with Rev 20:5,6 and it is clear there will be TWO resurrections total, 1 for the saved and 1 for the unsaved, and they will be 1,000 years apart.
FreeGrace2 said:
No, I'm just following what the Bible says. Do you see anyone getting saved in the MK? I don't.
Please explain yourself. If the Bible doesn't say something, then why make up something? I have no idea what you mean by
seven 1000-year days. I take Rev 20 literally, so it seems you have a very different idea.
Do the math according to Revelation. There will easily be a lot more than 1/3 of the population KILLED during the Trib. Rev 9:15
And since there WILL BE living believers when Jesus comes back, obviously there will also be unbelievers.
Exactly!
Where do you think the ruling glorified believers will be in the MK?
You seem to forget that even in glorified bodies, all believers are still saints.
When the MK begins, the only mortals left will be unsaved. I see no evidence of evangelism during the MK, at least no converts.
And, IF there were, how come the Bible says nothing about when or if they would receive glorified bodies? 1 Cor 15:23 prevents such an action.
No, I'm just following what the Bible says. Do you see anyone getting saved in the MK? I don't.
Please explain yourself. If the Bible doesn't say something, then why make up something? I have no idea what you mean by
seven 1000-year days. I take Rev 20 literally, so it seems you have a very different idea.
Do the math according to Revelation. There will easily be a lot more than 1/3 of the population KILLED during the Trib. Rev 9:15
And since there WILL BE living believers when Jesus comes back, obviously there will also be unbelievers.
Well - I will suggest that the "rod of iron" that He will rule with might give them "an attitude adjustment"...
Not the whole world - read carefully.
Revelation 20:
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
What was that - in verse 9 - "and compassed the camp of the saints about" ???
Revelation 20:
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
What was that - in verse 9 - "and compassed the camp of the saints about" ???
You seem to forget that even in glorified bodies, all believers are still saints.
When the MK begins, the only mortals left will be unsaved. I see no evidence of evangelism during the MK, at least no converts.
And, IF there were, how come the Bible says nothing about when or if they would receive glorified bodies? 1 Cor 15:23 prevents such an action.
Do you really see that scenario happening after 1000 years of being ruled by completely-and-entirely impervious beings?
What do you suppose they think they are going to do to a group of immortal beings - who may punish them severely at will?
Why would all of the immortal saints be hanging out in one location instead of taking care of the Lord's business worldwide?
What do you suppose they think they are going to do to a group of immortal beings - who may punish them severely at will?
Why would all of the immortal saints be hanging out in one location instead of taking care of the Lord's business worldwide?
Of course I do. During the Tribulation, people will "refuse to repent", per Rev 16:9,11 even when faced with the power of God's wrath. They simply dig their heels in.
So it will be THOSE people who will have children. How do you think they will raise them?
Just as today, their hatred of all things God will motivate them, plus Satan's deceptions when he will be released.
Don't ask me. The Bible doesn't say. Ask questions where the Bible has answers.
God hasn't told us everything. And I don't speculate.
So it will be THOSE people who will have children. How do you think they will raise them?
Just as today, their hatred of all things God will motivate them, plus Satan's deceptions when he will be released.
Don't ask me. The Bible doesn't say. Ask questions where the Bible has answers.
God hasn't told us everything. And I don't speculate.
FreeGrace2 said:
Well, just read Rev 20. There is no evidence that anyone will believe during the MK. We don't have to speculate about "what if...".
When the Bible is silent about something, why would I need a verse? It is just speculation about what "might be" when the Bible doesn't address something.
I don't speculate. I do look at trends IN the Bible. Unbelievers who survive the Tribulation have been REFUSING to repent, in spite of the intensity of God's wrath. That didn't move them. So why would Christ's reign move them? I don't know, and the Bible doesn't say.
Rev 20-
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Sounds like ALL of them, not just some or most of them. Anyway, if there were going to be believers from the MK, the Bible flatly states that there will be one resurrection of the saved, which occurs when King Jesus returns to earth for the MK. So it would seem that those MK believers wouldn't get glorified bodies. That doesn't make sense to me.
Well, just read Rev 20. There is no evidence that anyone will believe during the MK. We don't have to speculate about "what if...".
When the Bible is silent about something, why would I need a verse? It is just speculation about what "might be" when the Bible doesn't address something.
I don't speculate. I do look at trends IN the Bible. Unbelievers who survive the Tribulation have been REFUSING to repent, in spite of the intensity of God's wrath. That didn't move them. So why would Christ's reign move them? I don't know, and the Bible doesn't say.
Rev 20-
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Sounds like ALL of them, not just some or most of them. Anyway, if there were going to be believers from the MK, the Bible flatly states that there will be one resurrection of the saved, which occurs when King Jesus returns to earth for the MK. So it would seem that those MK believers wouldn't get glorified bodies. That doesn't make sense to me.