Struggling reading through romans 8 & 9 and Calvinism.

Christ died for all men. This is fundamental core Christian Doctrine.

Only those who accept and believe shall be saved. This also is fundamental core Christian Doctrine.

No person is cleansed by Christ's blood until they come to The Lord and yield themselves to Him.

What you are promoting here on CC is not Christianity.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

John 3:16 is referring to all men.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Your mutilation of God's Word has been tolerated for far too long.

All are lost in darkness and unregenerate until they come to the light. Jesus Came to heal the sick and downtrodden, not those who are "regenerate."

John 14:6
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

There is no other way to become regenerated but by coming to Jesus and letting Him make us clean and whole.

Previously I said: God never takes sides.

[You literally believe that God and Satan are on the same side? I don't think you actually mean what you said.
In your interpretation does Psa 56:9 not indicate that God takes sides?]

To change to what I said and to add Satan to the discussion reveals wicked motives. God's side is always the truth. If you are one with Christ, and you are in the truth, you are on His side. therefore, you can call on Him to defend you and protect you.

Psalms 56:3 (NASB) "When I am afraid, I will put my trust in You." The psalmist is on God's side. He calls on the covenant promises for God to deliver Him which is a far cry from thinking He agrees with us just because we believe to have the right theology.

Joshua 5:13-14 (NASB) Now it came about when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand, and Joshua went to him and said to him, “Are you for us or for our adversaries?" (Joshua was asking the Lord if He was on the side of Israel)

14 He said, “No; rather I indeed come now as captain of the host of the LORD.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him, “What has my lord to say to his servant?” (Joshua took his place as a humble servant and moved to God's side).

[Yes he did. Many passages describe a cause and effect where God did (a) and the result was (b). God removed Pharaoh's free will in respect to that choice.]

"But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go." - Exodus 10:20 KJV]

Ultimately, God hardened Pharaoh's heart because Pharaoh refused to soften his heart after many attempts from Moses asking him to let the people of God go.
Just in case, taking a verse out of context does nothing for the discussion. You need to read the entire passage in context. God knew the heart of Pharaoh and knew what he would do, yet he gave him chance after chance for him to change his mind. Your Calvinistic mindset forbids you to look at the word of God from a different perspective.

["For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." - Rom 7:14-18 KJV]

Where is your "sinful nature"? Paul was speaking about how his FLESH warred against the law of God making it impossible for him to obey it perfectly. In this diatribe, Paul was either referring to the time before he came to Christ, or he was speaking about the carnal mind of a Jew, so he may have put himself out as an example to help us understand that without Christ we are most wretched people (Rom. 7:24-25.

The Bible does not speak about having a sinful nature but about being under the control of the flesh and our vain imaginations. This is why when the gospel is preached, the worst sinner can be convicted of it and find himself bowing the knee to Christ after he surrenders to the Lord. He is chosen AFTER his confession of faith, not before. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SINFUL NATURE. That is a man-made doctrine void of biblical proof.

I said and I quote; Romans 7 says nothing about having a sinful nature therefore your entire Calvinistic false beliefs fall apart at the seams.

[Calvinistic beliefs? I don't even know what Calvinism entails.]

You are a Calvinist don't you, or should I say "Reformed"? A Calvinist follows the tenets of John Calvin

https://radicallychristian.com/reasons-why-i-am-not-a-calvinist

No. Look back at what I said and look back at what you said.

I said God takes sides against the devil. You rejected that by claiming God doesn't take sides.

Did you misspeak?

I've had my fill of that Dispensationalist BS gambit to attack a person when your ability to logically defend your argument fails. I know you said you were formerly a Dispensationalist but it's idiotic comments like this that make me question how 'former' that status really is. Rise above this nonsense. Don't play stupid games. You are better than this. Don't disappoint my expectations of you.

You claimed God doesn't pick sides and I put forward two examples about how your interpretation is completely incorrect and utterly untenable. You don't need to attack someone personally just because someone challenged your bad argument.

No. There is nothing in the passage that indicates that God's choice was contingent upon any choice of Pharaoh's. God did something to ensure that Pharaoh would act in a desired way. God removed Pharaoh's free will regarding that choice.

And this is addressed in Romans 9.

"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?" - Rom 9:19 KJV

Read the surrounding verses for context. Clear as day this is talking about Pharaoh being unable to resist God's will. And God willed Pharaoh not to let Moses and the other Israelites go.

Yes, and God knew the exact cause and effect needed to ensure that Pharaoh would perform as God intended. His intention for hardening Pharaoh's heart was to specifically elicit the desired action of not releasing the people. God willed the Pharaoh not to release the people. Pharaoh had no free will to choose otherwise.

Read Exodus again, that's not what happened.

Let me clarify my question. I don't understand what you are calling Calvinistic. Out of the positions I have indicated here, what are you describing to be Calvinistic and what aspect of Calvinism are you applying within that description?

You come across like you are playing coy with a very simple concept. The KJV of course doesn't have the specific phrase "sinful nature" verbatim. But it is synonymous with what is talked about. And other translations do go so far as to spell it out word for word as "sinful nature" such as NIV in Rom 7:18 (as much as I dislike NIV).

"I am carnal" describes the fact that Paul has a carnal fleshly nature that causes him to sin. The carnal mind is against God (cf. Rom 8:7) and therefore is sinful. That which is done without faith is sin.

Would you prefer I rephase my response to say "carnal mind" instead of "sinful nature"? For the purposes of our discussion, they mean the same thing.

I think you had mentioned your perspective about this in a different thread a few months back under your other username. I still don't agree with the concept that Paul would be speaking in retrospect rather than in frank honesty about his then current biological impulses.

I would go so far to say that since the early Church accepted the concept that those in Christ can sin/ trespass (and from there be forgiven our trespasses), it stands that all Christians should accept that concept. I realize there is a divide between Roman Catholicism and Greek Catholicism because one believes in inherent sinful nature comes Adam and the other doesn't. I propose that regardless of origin, that carnal mind still exists for all people but that a silent or still carnal mind cannot sin. It's just that most people don't have a perfectly still carnal mind (and therefore sin takes place).

Relative to the early Church, what you are proposing in your comment is a heresy. Even Luther accepted the teachings of the early Church.

There are two things that matter in Biblical study: the Bible itself, and early Church doctrine (e.g. the Trinity).

Well then in that case God would be TOTALLY UNJUST for holding Pharaoh accountable. God DID NOT remove Pharaoh's free will at all. Even before Moses approached Pharaoh, he was an evil and hard-hearted man by free choice. No one compelled him to do evil.

Many people read these threads without interacting. Some are new to the faith while others are still unsure, and they’re inundated with poisonous, heretical theologies that weaken their beliefs and push them away. It’s very disturbing.

That's unnecessary.

If you read that verse a little closer you can see that @ForestGreenCook is 100% correct.



Whosoever believes will have everlasting life. That IS referencing the world of believers. It DOESN'T say the Whole World will have everlasting life. There is a condition involved.


You need to start reading a little bit better before you make silly, untrue comments towards someone.

More nonsensical poison. 🙄

That's a weird thought to have, for a Christian.

I was new to the faith when I first started coming here and there were lots of theologies that were against my own.

I started having conversations with them showing them scripture and why I believed differently.


This made my faith STRONGER in what I now believe because I started researching more scripture that went with my own beliefs.


Why wouldn't everyone do this? And if your beliefs don't stand up to scripture then maybe you should re-think them.

Different people have different strengths and weaknesses therefore it stands to reason people have different styles of how they search for truth. As for me, my beliefs stand with scripture because they’re based on Scripture. Thanks for your concern.

It just takes reading, comprehension and critical thinking skills which I guess hardly anyone has anymore.

Nonsensical poison...

You CAN read can't you???

I don't think you would make the silly, untrue comments you do if your beliefs stand with scripture.

I think you would be able to see the TRUTH of Scripture and you would see that your belief doesn't perfectly line up with them.

You know what it takes to ascertain truth but unfortunately you prefer the poison. Talk about a lack of critical thinking on your part. Very sad.

You can say that again. 😆

I am late to the conversation. But wanted to share my view.

I did a teaching on Romans 9 a few years ago. I gave the calvinist view. and the other view of the passage.

what I came to understand is that Paul was answering the questions most likely asked by many. Did God make a mistake choosing Israel.

he then goes step by step answering these questions. In this vew. I see romans 9 - 11 flows. with romans 11 showing that God is not done with Israel..

I found what I call the fatalistic (calvinist) view of romans 9 troubling.. for many reasons..

as for us believing being a work. Remember, we believe and trust the work of God. the one who came to rescue us.. So in essence it is not a work., because our faith does not save us, Gods grace does. and his grace is only available by his sons work on the cross

Except that Scripture EXPRESSLY says that God HARDENED Pharaohs heart.

And God did it for His Purpose so that everyone would know He was Lord.

Our belief is not the cause though.

It is us telling God, yes, I want you to save me.

Much like the tax collector did.

Those who do not believe will not recieve, they will reject. and either deny they need salvation or try to save themselves.

As john said,

As many as RECIEVED him, to THEM he gave the right to become children of God (born into the family of God or born again) eve to those who BELIEVE

only those who believe will recieve

Actually Pharaoh hardened his own heart many times

The word harden in hebrew means to strengthen. All God did was strengthen pharaoh's on will we see that By god sending different things his way. he started small. and every time pharaoh rejected, his heart got stranger (harder)

That's what I was saying.

Our belief CANNOT be the cause of Salvation or it makes Scripture untrue.

Faith is a Gift of God.