Struggling reading through romans 8 & 9 and Calvinism.

[ForestGreenCook]

Please tell me where, in John 3:16 you see ANYTHING about a "world of believers"....

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

There is a "world" that God loves, and there is a world that God hates.

Do the following scriptures fit the world that is referenced in John 3:16?

John 15:18-19 - If the world hate you, ye know it hated me before it hated you, If ye were of the world, the world would love his own, but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 16:20 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice, and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

John 17:14 - I have given them the word, and the world hateth them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

 

[hornetguy]

Do the following scriptures fit the world that is referenced in John 3:16?

No.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

It obviously happens when a natural (sinful) man rises from death to his trespasses and sins... we rise from that death as we come out of the waters of baptism.

1 Pet 3:21 - tells us that baptism is an answer of a good conscience toward God that delivers (saves) us from our guilt. Being baptised does not wash away your sins, as you have been taught.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No.

Let me word it differently. Do these scriptures depict the world that God loves?

 

[Jocund]

May I say that many in Israel are of Israel.

"In Israel" - Are you taking about the Biblical 'all Israel', the people? or the modern geopolitical state that calls itself 'Israel?'

"Of Israel" - Do you mean this as in genetic progeny of Jacob/Israel including nonIsaac descendants?

It could be the case that many Jacob descendants are in the modern geopolitical state that calls itself Israel. But whether these are chosen "all Israel" is not clear. Maybe 100% of the modern citizens are hidden Sauls yet to be realized as Pauls. It could also be the case that 0% of the modern citizens would be of the promises.

It was God's sovereign will that the PROMISE will follow from a strict, chosen, Jewish, bloodline.

It was not by bloodline alone. That's the point that Paul was communicating. And more than that, nonbloodline individuals can be inherited into the promises.

Jewish conversion to Jesus Christ and the sanctification that the Holy Spirit endows.

Agreed, but not every bloodline Jew is guaranteed to turn to Christ and become grafted into the promises.

God bound everyone over to disobedience so that He can have mercy on them all. (Romans 11:32)

This is talking about "all Israel" not "all of Israel". Not all Jews are "all Israel"

Correct but Paul is still tracing the bloodline of the chosen Jewish lineage.

He was bringing up the fact that bloodline is not the only determining factor for inheritance of the promises. He uses Isaac as an example of this. He is not saying that all descendants of Isaac are heirs to the promise.

Your trying to undermine the genealogy of the Christ, the promised one.

Your comment here makes no sense. If the chosen Jews are a subset of those that call themselves Jews, how does that undermine Christ's genealogy?

You also cannot accept that God chose the Jews, Jerusalem, and Israel.

I disagree with the erroneous context that you are trying to apply to that. True Jews like Paul are chosen (Jews that are in Christ, aka Christians). True Israel (the people) is chosen.

And what do you mean by "Jerusalem is chosen". If you are stating that because prophesies reference mount Zion, etc. you could say that anyone in any prophesy is "chosen" including Satan himself. "Chosen" / "Elect" has a very specific context that you are ignoring.

Why do you reject the truth that Christians are God's chosen people?

 

[Jocund]

The "life" and "death" in Deut 30:19 does not refer to eternal life and eternal death

Whether you interpret Deut 30:19 to be talking about physical death or spiritual death is irrelevant. The point is that this affirms that choice exists and therefore hard-determinism cannot be true if this reference to choice is sincere.

Many are called, which is all of God's elect, (the house of Israel)

If by house of Israel you are referring to the Church, yes.

which is the remnant of the house of Israel, who were revealed the knowledge of God's righteousness, by the revelation of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

The house of Israel does not refer to all people of Israel.

Eph 1:4 is not referencing all mankind, but only his elect.

It is only referencing Christians.

Rev 17:8 are those that are not his elect.

You missed the point.

Rev 69:28 the book of the living includes all mankind, which is different from the book of (eternal) life. David is asking the Lord to actually kill them from their life.

Do you have scriptural evidence to back up your claim?

 

[hornetguy]

1 Pet 3:21 - tells us that baptism is an answer of a good conscience toward God that delivers (saves) us from our guilt. Being baptised does not wash away your sins, as you have been taught.

You mean, what Peter taught us?
and I agree that baptism is an appeal to God for a clear conscience...... as scripture states.

 

[Runningman]

Believing is not a work, nor is it forced. If one is chosen to believe, then it ceases to be believe.

Believing is a work:

John 6 NIV
28Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

 

[John146]

Believing is a work:

John 6 NIV
28Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Yes, I know that verse. It’s not a work of the law.

 

[hornetguy]

Let me word it differently. Do these scriptures depict the world that God loves?

I'm not sure what you are trying to get at. God loves THE WORLD. Not some word parsed "this world" "that world" kind of place.
God hates sin. God's plan was for ALL men to be saved, but He also knew there would be many that reject Him. God loved "the world" enough to send His son to die for "the world".... why do you try to make it something other than that?

 

[Jocund]

God never takes sides.

You literally believe that God and Satan are on the same side? I don't think you actually mean what you said.

"When I cry unto thee, then shall mine enemies turn back: this I know; for God is for me." - Psalms 56:9 KJV

In your interpretation does Psa 56:9 not indicate that God takes sides?

God did not remove Pharaoh's free will

Yes he did. Many passages describe a cause and effect where God did (a) and the result was (b). God removed Pharaoh's free will in respect to that choice.

"But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go." - Exodus 10:20 KJV

What does this verse mean to you?

search for "sinful nature." IT IS NOT THERE!

"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." - Rom 7:14-18 KJV

What does this passage mean to you?

Romans 7 says nothing about having a sinful nature therefore your entire Calvinistic false beliefs fall apart at the seams.

Calvinistic beliefs? I don't even know what Calvinism entails.

https://infogalactic.com/info/Calvinism

I look through and still have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[VARob]

The only way that the unregenerate (the natural man -1 Cor 2:14) can become a Spiritual being is explained in Eph 2:1-5 And you (the natural man) hath he quickened,(given life) who were dead (spiritually dead) in trespasses and sins.

Quickening to the new spiritual life happens when God purposes it to happen.

It happens when a person hears the Gospel and decides to believe it.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[oyster67]

Reads to me as if Esau did not have a choice .

Every person ever born has had a choice. Not a single exception. God's grace is extended and offered to all.

 

[Beckie]

Every person ever born has had a choice. Not a single exception. God's grace is extended and offered to all.

Judas? Pharaoh? Joseph? The other Joseph? We aint gonna agree

Exo_4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

 

[oyster67]

Careful Oyster67, Paul is very direct when discussing God's purpose. Please read the following.

Romans 9:11
For though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls.

You may be misunderstanding what Paul is discussing in Romans 9.

Think 'purpose', what is the purpose of God in choosing Jacob before Jacob was even born.

Thank you for your verse;
Romans 9:11
For though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls.

Let's talk about it.

My understanding of this verse (and it's context) is that God can and does use human beings to fulfil His purpose regardless of whether they do good or bad. This in no way suggest that they do not have a choice about how they live their lives and what decisions they make. He would certainly prefer that we make the right choices, but His plans will come to fruition either way.

It helps to consider what the Bible says as a whole rather than trying to build and bolster our own doctrine on and with one pet verse.

Let's look at another verse:
2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

 

[Beckie]

Some folks believe humans are in control some folks believe God is.

 

[Cameron143]

At least on some level all Christians should be able to say that sometimes the sovereignty of God restricts the choices of people. Consider your own birth: did you choose to be born? did you choose your hair or eye color? did you choose your favorite color independently of God's design in you?
Paul, in speaking to the people in Athens,said God had determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation.
James tells his audience that people should say...if the Lord wills...we will buy and sell and make much gain...
David in the Psalms says that all the days ordained for him were written in a book before any came to be.
So the idea that God doesn't at some level intervene in the affairs of mankind is without merit.
One can argue the extent to which God exercises sovereignty, but scripture clearly affirms that He does.

 

[Grandpa]

People who go through life never believing are not forgiven but rather condemned. How can you say otherwise?

I agree.

But at some point, they can ask for forgiveness and be forgiven. And be given Faith.

If they don't then they remain in their condemned state.

 

[oyster67]

Judas? Pharaoh? Joseph? The other Joseph?

They all made choices. Please tell me that you believe and understand this.

We aint gonna agree
Exo_4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

This was not the first day of little Pharaoh's life. He was not a righteous man of God. God hardened Him because tools sometimes work best when they are hard. God can use anything at any time to accomplish any job. This in no way implies that Pharoah never had the opportunity to walk with God the same way Noah and Abraham did. God is willing to extend grace and mercy to any man who is willing to repent and receive.

 

[Snacks]

But at some point, they can ask for forgiveness and be forgiven. And be given Faith.

That’s the beauty of the Gospel. 🙏