Struggling reading through romans 8 & 9 and Calvinism.

There is no verse that states "The nation of Israel is chosen". The elect, chosen, etc lines are referencing a people, not a nation.

You are conflating two different things. There is no verse that states "The nation of Israel is chosen". The elect, chosen, etc lines are referencing a people, not a nation. And it is not1 referencing a people solely on the basis of flesh.



No. That isn't what that passage says at all. There was no country named Israel back in that day. Biblically Israel only ever referred to a people. "Land of Israel" is a reference to a land of a people called Israel, not that the land itself was called Israel. This idea of land itself being called 'Israel' is a modern thing.



No. Paul is not talking about a nation called Israel. Read the whole verse. You can't cherry-pick "countrymen" and ignore the fact that each of the descriptions add together to address a specific group. It's an apposition.

Isaiah 45:22
“Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.”

It appears that the Father is calling out to all.

"All the ends of the earth" is a reference to God's elect which are out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

The people ARE the nation. A theocracy created by God for His own purposes.

Deu 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Deu 14:2
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

1Ki 3:8
And thy servant is in the midst of thy people which thou hast chosen, a great people, that cannot be numbered nor counted for multitude.

Psa 33:12
Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

1Ch 16:13
O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones.

Isa 43:20
The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.

2Ch 6:6
But I have chosen Jerusalem, that my name might be there; and have chosen David to be over my people Israel.

Psa 135:4
For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

Isa 41:8
But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Isa 44:1
Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:

1Ch 17:21
And what one nation in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people, whom thou hast redeemed out of Egypt?

Isa 43:1
But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

Isa 44:23
Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.

Luk 1:68
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

More TWISTING of the Scriptures. "All the ends of the earth" means all of humanity. But since that is not good enough for your false gospel, you twist the Word of God -- actually the words of God.

In order to glean the truth of Jesus doctrine, all of the scriptures must harmonize, and I do not think your theology allows that.

How did the chosen country we call Israel crucify their own creator?

That's the problem...all of scripture does not have to harmonize. The bible is written to several different groups. Each of these groups may have different directions from God. All scripture is written for us, but not all scripture is written to us.

You are conflating two different things. There is no verse that states "The nation of Israel is chosen". The elect, chosen, etc lines are referencing a people, not a nation. And it is not1 referencing a people solely on the basis of flesh.



No. That isn't what that passage says at all. There was no country named Israel back in that day. Biblically Israel only ever referred to a people. "Land of Israel" is a reference to a land of a people called Israel, not that the land itself was called Israel. This idea of land itself being called 'Israel' is a modern thing.



No. Paul is not talking about a nation called Israel. Read the whole verse. You can't cherry-pick "countrymen" and ignore the fact that each of the descriptions add together to address a specific group. It's an apposition.

But once our sins are washed away (remitted) and we've received the Holy Ghost, then it seems each person still has to work out their own salvation with God as to what part works have in relationship to their own spiritual safety. And I dont think that is as simplistic as some make it sound[/QUOTE

Salvation is translated in Greek to mean "a deliverance". Working out your own salvation is a deliverance that the child of God receives as he sojourns here in this world.

The inspired scriptures were written to God's adopted children instructing them how he wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth. They were not written to the unregenerate instructing them how to get saved eternally, because the scriptures teach that eternal deliverance was accomplished by God's sovereign grace, without the actions of mankind. (John 6:39 & Eph 2:1-5)

"Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins" might be considered by some to be works. That might be where the disagreement starts, because... If we are to obey what that says, then we need to DO something (because of actually believing what it says).

People who don't want to DO (or believe) what it says have to find some excuse as to why they refuse to repent from their own ways (or doctrines). So they call that obedience "works".

That's basically my understanding of the situation regarding the interaction on the initial salvational aspect.

But once our sins are washed away (remitted) and we've received the Holy Ghost, then it seems each person still has to work out their own salvation with God as to what part works have in relationship to their own spiritual safety. And I dont think that is as simplistic as some make it sound.

I think we all know, or sense intuitively, that God is the author or our salvation, not us. But on the other hand we also sense intuitively that we cannot just do whatever we want.

There has to be some change in our actions...our WORKS.

Even the "believe-only" crowd actually acknowledges this... even if they dont admit it.

We just struggle to figure out where that boundary is.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

God gave instructions to Noah to build an ark. Have you started to build an ark? God gave instructions for animal sacrifices. Do you offer up animal sacrifices? All scripture is for us to read and understand, but not all scripture is written to us. Btw, sovereign is not in the bible.

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

It is obvious that part of this audience had not received the word of God and their souls were not saved, and yet, God's word is instructing them to receive it so there souls would be saved.

That's the problem...all of scripture does not have to harmonize.

The bible is written to several different groups. Each of these groups may have different directions from God. All scripture is written for us, but not all scripture is written to us.

God gave instructions to Noah to build an ark. Have you started to build an ark? God gave instructions for animal sacrifices. Do you offer up animal sacrifices? All scripture is for us to read and understand, but not all scripture is written to us. Btw, sovereign is not in the bibl

If you would give me the liberty to add something to your comments; God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel. (Gen 32:28) Jacob/Israel is not the nation of Israel, but is representing all of God's elect from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. (Rom 9:11).

God gave instructions to Noah to build an ark. Have you started to build an ark?

God gave instructions for animal sacrifices. Do you offer up animal sacrifices?

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

It is obvious that part of this audience had not received the word of God and their souls were not saved, and yet, God's word is instructing them to receive it so there souls would be saved.

God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel (Gen 32:28). Jacob, as Israel represents all of God's elect people (Rom 9:11) from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation (Rev 5:9).