Struggling reading through romans 8 & 9 and Calvinism.

[cv5]

There is no verse that states "The nation of Israel is chosen". The elect, chosen, etc lines are referencing a people, not a nation.

The people ARE the nation. A theocracy created by God for His own purposes.

Deu 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Deu 14:2
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

1Ki 3:8
And thy servant is in the midst of thy people which thou hast chosen, a great people, that cannot be numbered nor counted for multitude.

Psa 33:12
Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

1Ch 16:13
O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones.

Isa 43:20
The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.

2Ch 6:6
But I have chosen Jerusalem, that my name might be there; and have chosen David to be over my people Israel.

Psa 135:4
For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

Isa 41:8
But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Isa 44:1
Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:

1Ch 17:21
And what one nation in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people, whom thou hast redeemed out of Egypt?

Isa 43:1
But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

Isa 44:23
Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.

Luk 1:68
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

 

[cv5]

You are conflating two different things. There is no verse that states "The nation of Israel is chosen". The elect, chosen, etc lines are referencing a people, not a nation. And it is not1 referencing a people solely on the basis of flesh.



No. That isn't what that passage says at all. There was no country named Israel back in that day. Biblically Israel only ever referred to a people. "Land of Israel" is a reference to a land of a people called Israel, not that the land itself was called Israel. This idea of land itself being called 'Israel' is a modern thing.



No. Paul is not talking about a nation called Israel. Read the whole verse. You can't cherry-pick "countrymen" and ignore the fact that each of the descriptions add together to address a specific group. It's an apposition.

Come on bro. Paul loves his people and nation......and so should you. What is your problem?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Isaiah 45:22
“Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.”

It appears that the Father is calling out to all.

To my understanding, in an attempt to harmonize the scriptures, The "saved" is a deliverance that the child of God receives as he sojourns here on earth, by looking to God for help in his daily life. "All the ends of the earth" is a reference to God's elect which are out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

 

[Nehemiah6]

"All the ends of the earth" is a reference to God's elect which are out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

More TWISTING of the Scriptures. "All the ends of the earth" means all of humanity. But since that is not good enough for your false gospel, you twist the Word of God -- actually the words of God.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The people ARE the nation. A theocracy created by God for His own purposes.

Deu 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Deu 14:2
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

1Ki 3:8
And thy servant is in the midst of thy people which thou hast chosen, a great people, that cannot be numbered nor counted for multitude.

Psa 33:12
Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

1Ch 16:13
O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones.

Isa 43:20
The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.

2Ch 6:6
But I have chosen Jerusalem, that my name might be there; and have chosen David to be over my people Israel.

Psa 135:4
For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

Isa 41:8
But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Isa 44:1
Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:

1Ch 17:21
And what one nation in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people, whom thou hast redeemed out of Egypt?

Isa 43:1
But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

Isa 44:23
Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.

Luk 1:68
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

If you would give me the liberty to add something to your comments; God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel. (Gen 32:28) Jacob/Israel is not the nation of Israel, but is representing all of God's elect from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. (Rom 9:11).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

More TWISTING of the Scriptures. "All the ends of the earth" means all of humanity. But since that is not good enough for your false gospel, you twist the Word of God -- actually the words of God.

In order to glean the truth of Jesus doctrine, all of the scriptures must harmonize, and I do not think your theology allows that.

 

[John146]

In order to glean the truth of Jesus doctrine, all of the scriptures must harmonize, and I do not think your theology allows that.

That's the problem...all of scripture does not have to harmonize. The bible is written to several different groups. Each of these groups may have different directions from God. All scripture is written for us, but not all scripture is written to us.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

How did the chosen country we call Israel crucify their own creator?

That is exactly what happened. "The house of Israel" is not referencing "the nation of Israel", but is referencing Jacob as Israel, because God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel. (Gen 32:28). Jacob as Israel represents all of God's elect (Rom 9:11). which are from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation (Rev 5:9).

Acts 2:36 - When a person is born again, God exchanges their heart from a heart of stone to a fleshy heart that is soft enough to be "pricked" to feel guilty. These Jews to whom Peter is preaching to are already born again by evidence of their new fleshy heart that was "pricked". and they replied to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "men and brethren, what must we do".

In contrast to the fleshy heart's reply, those with the heart of stone, that heard Stephen preach the same sermon were "cut to the heart" and gnashed on him with their teeth, and stoned him to death (Acts 7:54).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

That's the problem...all of scripture does not have to harmonize. The bible is written to several different groups. Each of these groups may have different directions from God. All scripture is written for us, but not all scripture is written to us.

The inspired scriptures were written to God's adopted children instructing them how he wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth. They were not written to the unregenerate instructing them how to get saved eternally, because the scriptures teach that eternal deliverance was accomplished by God's sovereign grace, without the actions of mankind. (John 6:39 & Eph 2:1-5)

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You are conflating two different things. There is no verse that states "The nation of Israel is chosen". The elect, chosen, etc lines are referencing a people, not a nation. And it is not1 referencing a people solely on the basis of flesh.



No. That isn't what that passage says at all. There was no country named Israel back in that day. Biblically Israel only ever referred to a people. "Land of Israel" is a reference to a land of a people called Israel, not that the land itself was called Israel. This idea of land itself being called 'Israel' is a modern thing.



No. Paul is not talking about a nation called Israel. Read the whole verse. You can't cherry-pick "countrymen" and ignore the fact that each of the descriptions add together to address a specific group. It's an apposition.

God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel (Gen 32:28). Jacob, as Israel represents all of God's elect people (Rom 9:11) from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation (Rev 5:9).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

But once our sins are washed away (remitted) and we've received the Holy Ghost, then it seems each person still has to work out their own salvation with God as to what part works have in relationship to their own spiritual safety. And I dont think that is as simplistic as some make it sound[/QUOTE

Salvation is translated in Greek to mean "a deliverance". Working out your own salvation is a deliverance that the child of God receives as he sojourns here in this world.

 

[John146]

The inspired scriptures were written to God's adopted children instructing them how he wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth. They were not written to the unregenerate instructing them how to get saved eternally, because the scriptures teach that eternal deliverance was accomplished by God's sovereign grace, without the actions of mankind. (John 6:39 & Eph 2:1-5)

God gave instructions to Noah to build an ark. Have you started to build an ark? God gave instructions for animal sacrifices. Do you offer up animal sacrifices? All scripture is for us to read and understand, but not all scripture is written to us. Btw, sovereign is not in the bible.

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

It is obvious that part of this audience had not received the word of God and their souls were not saved, and yet, God's word is instructing them to receive it so there souls would be saved.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

"Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins" might be considered by some to be works. That might be where the disagreement starts, because... If we are to obey what that says, then we need to DO something (because of actually believing what it says).

People who don't want to DO (or believe) what it says have to find some excuse as to why they refuse to repent from their own ways (or doctrines). So they call that obedience "works".

That's basically my understanding of the situation regarding the interaction on the initial salvational aspect.

But once our sins are washed away (remitted) and we've received the Holy Ghost, then it seems each person still has to work out their own salvation with God as to what part works have in relationship to their own spiritual safety. And I dont think that is as simplistic as some make it sound.

I think we all know, or sense intuitively, that God is the author or our salvation, not us. But on the other hand we also sense intuitively that we cannot just do whatever we want.

There has to be some change in our actions...our WORKS.

Even the "believe-only" crowd actually acknowledges this... even if they dont admit it.

We just struggle to figure out where that boundary is.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Your thinking seems to be scripturally sound.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

God gave instructions to Noah to build an ark. Have you started to build an ark? God gave instructions for animal sacrifices. Do you offer up animal sacrifices? All scripture is for us to read and understand, but not all scripture is written to us. Btw, sovereign is not in the bible.

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

It is obvious that part of this audience had not received the word of God and their souls were not saved, and yet, God's word is instructing them to receive it so there souls would be saved.

With all due respect, are you considering that the Greek interpretation of the word "save" means "deliver"? Receiving the word can deliver the born again child of God as he sojourns here in this world.

This is the reason so many of God's, well intended, children, are believing that the scriptures are teaching them that mankind has to do some works to gain eternal deliverance. The scriptures do teach that works are required, for the born again child of God, to walk with God, as he sojourns here on earth, if they rightly divide the salvation (deliverance) scriptures.

 

[Jocund]

That's the problem...all of scripture does not have to harmonize.

Distributing different passages to different people is a way to try to harmonize scripture.

The idea that scripture could contradict itself is heretical from a Christian perspective.

The bible is written to several different groups. Each of these groups may have different directions from God. All scripture is written for us, but not all scripture is written to us.

Make a proposal, we can collectively evaluate whether the proposed interpretation is consistent with scripture or not.

And if consistent, whether it is compelling or not.

One thing I think you are forgetting is that despite the fact that Paul 'dispensed' a letter to Timothy, etc., all of these letters and books were amalgamated together, dispensed to the early Church and then the early Church dispensed these to all current and future members of the Church in the form of the canonical Christian Bible. To reject the idea that these messages were dispensed to all Christians is to reject the foundations of the early Church, which is a heresy and categorically the same as rejecting the Trinity.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

God gave instructions to Noah to build an ark. Have you started to build an ark? God gave instructions for animal sacrifices. Do you offer up animal sacrifices? All scripture is for us to read and understand, but not all scripture is written to us. Btw, sovereign is not in the bibl

These were instructions to children of God, at that particular time.

 

[cv5]

If you would give me the liberty to add something to your comments; God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel. (Gen 32:28) Jacob/Israel is not the nation of Israel, but is representing all of God's elect from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. (Rom 9:11).

You are going to have to argue that the following IS NOT true:

-that had a theocratic law given to the people by God thru Moses that was national in scope
- the Israel was indeed a unique, identifiable Nation under their king David
-who had as their capitol Jerusalem (chosen by God)
-where the Temple was located, the pattern of which was given to David by God Himself
-which was a theocracy predicated on covenants given to Abraham, David and Levi,
which will perpetuate into the future not yet seen
-that Israel the Nation, (including King David himself) had/has massive amounts of prophecy, much of which has yet to be fulfilled

You will need to argue that ALL OF THIS (pertaining to National Israel) is an anomaly, is a work of the flesh, and was/is not actually part of God's overall plan.

Which of course....is utterly absurd.

 

[Jocund]

God gave instructions to Noah to build an ark. Have you started to build an ark?

This argument falls short because if Noah was resurrected, he would not be making another ark. The instruction was time based and applied only before the flood.

God gave instructions for animal sacrifices. Do you offer up animal sacrifices?

Yes. Christ is the perfect sacrifice. Fulfilment through equivalency.

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

It is obvious that part of this audience had not received the word of God and their souls were not saved, and yet, God's word is instructing them to receive it so there souls would be saved.

This argument also doesn't work because of Romans 7 and the recognition that in each of us is a carnal side that we continually war against.

 

[soberxp]

阿弥陀佛

 

[cv5]

God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel (Gen 32:28). Jacob, as Israel represents all of God's elect people (Rom 9:11) from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation (Rev 5:9).

BTW....I reject replacement theology and amillenialism in all of its forms. Which is the path to which such sentiments lead.

Looks like our buddy Jocund can't say the same thing huh?

In fact I had to bail out from a Church I had been attending for some time because the pastor and his second banana were all CLOSET amillenialists. In other words, they held their cards close, and did not tip their hand....very sneaky about their errant beliefs. I discovered the truth eventually and was out of there.

Little wonder his exegesis on prophecy was unintelligible rubbish. Which of course is to be expected if you are so foolish as to kick the Nation Israel to the curb prophetically.

If Ezekiel chapters (yes, the entire chapters) 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47 and 48 are not enough to convince you of the future so prophesied for Israel, nothing will.

So what is going on here? Some of kind of gentile Church scenario? Ridiculous.

Eze 48:1
Now these are the names of the tribes. From the north end to the coast of the way of Hethlon, as one goeth to Hamath, Hazarenan, the border of Damascus northward, to the coast of Hamath; for these are his sides east and west; a portion for Dan.

Eze 48:2
And by the border of Dan, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Asher.

Eze 48:3
And by the border of Asher, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Naphtali.

Eze 48:4
And by the border of Naphtali, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Manasseh.

Eze 48:5
And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Ephraim.

Eze 48:6
And by the border of Ephraim, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Reuben.

Eze 48:7
And by the border of Reuben, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Judah.

Eze 48:8
And by the border of Judah, from the east side unto the west side, shall be the offering which ye shall offer of five and twenty thousand reeds in breadth, and in length as one of the other parts, from the east side unto the west side: and the sanctuary shall be in the midst of it.