Is faith a work?
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Yes that was the next question I had before you said so.
I understand your perspective I think, but since we're all sinners in need of forgiveness, what criteria does God use to chose His own to salvation? Why not take it to the next level as God omnipotent and save literally everyone?
After all, even those who are saved aren't any better than anyone else; the wages of everyones' sin is death. And does God have favorites? Based on what you're saying, are you pro-unconditional election (sovereign election) or pro-universalism? Anyway, a lot of questions and most of it is just me thinking out loud.
What's your answer to your question?
I understand your perspective I think, but since we're all sinners in need of forgiveness, what criteria does God use to chose His own to salvation? Why not take it to the next level as God omnipotent and save literally everyone?
After all, even those who are saved aren't any better than anyone else; the wages of everyones' sin is death. And does God have favorites? Based on what you're saying, are you pro-unconditional election (sovereign election) or pro-universalism? Anyway, a lot of questions and most of it is just me thinking out loud.
What's your answer to your question?
The difference is that you have no verses that actually say that God's election is unconditional or that it is to salvation.
In EVERY verse that mentions the purpose of God's election, it is ALWAYS to service, including Judas the betrayer, in John 6:70,71.
And you are correct; it IS pointless to have a discussion with someone who is very closed minded.
In EVERY verse that mentions the purpose of God's election, it is ALWAYS to service, including Judas the betrayer, in John 6:70,71.
And you are correct; it IS pointless to have a discussion with someone who is very closed minded.
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awelight said:
Why did God have to Elect?
I think you are wasting your time, since he can't even prove his view that election is to salvation.
Why did God have to Elect?
I think you are wasting your time, since he can't even prove his view that election is to salvation.
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runn
Yes, Faith is the Gift of God, not of ourselves, its the fruit of Spiritual life
Yeah as stated Faith is the Gift of God, and no everyone isnt given faith, Just Christs Sheep
Yes if you do take credit for it, then that makes it your work, or your goodness being the ground as to why God saved you. Most people believe that God saw in them faith and they believe, and responds accordingly and saves them. Do you believe that ?
Yes, Faith is the Gift of God, not of ourselves, its the fruit of Spiritual life
Yeah as stated Faith is the Gift of God, and no everyone isnt given faith, Just Christs Sheep
Yes if you do take credit for it, then that makes it your work, or your goodness being the ground as to why God saved you. Most people believe that God saw in them faith and they believe, and responds accordingly and saves them. Do you believe that ?
How does someone have a Spiritual life without faith first? If I understand you correctly, you're saying faith is the fruit of a Spiritual life. There's no higher Spiritual life than to first know Christ through faith.
Below is the prayer of the Son:
John 17:1-5 KJV
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Can we have eternal life, know God, and have Spiritual life before faith?
Below is the prayer of the Son:
John 17:1-5 KJV
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Can we have eternal life, know God, and have Spiritual life before faith?
This particular subject is probably one of the few things we seem to agree on and it happens to be a topic that matters more than the others.
However, I still want to explore the topic at hand. I remain open to holy writ Scripture and New Testament verses. Maybe if I see something from a different angle I'll learn something.
However, I still want to explore the topic at hand. I remain open to holy writ Scripture and New Testament verses. Maybe if I see something from a different angle I'll learn something.
Do you remember those that came to the Lord and said didn't we do mighty works in your name and He said depart from Me I never knew you?
Jesus wants your "work" to be a result of you believing Him. For example, Paul says that Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness, hence he was saved by faith.
James says that Abraham believed God and so took his only son to sacrifice to God. This was his believing the word that was spoken to him. Nobody could possibly imagine this is a work of God to sacrifice the son that God gave you through your faith. James says that what Abraham did here was a work and it showed that his faith was living. Abraham believed in a God of resurrection and his work demonstrated that.
Now if you were a Jew at the time of the Lord's speaking in John 6 to believe that Jesus was the Messiah would cause you to be thrown out of the temple. You live in a community where everything revolves around the temple. You wouldn't be allowed to go to the yearly feasts. No one would marry your son or daughter. Your wife would probably divorce you. This would be the equivalent of sacrificing your son on the altar. Paul did this, Peter did this, John did this. 2,000 years later we can easily see that what they did was a work of faith.
Jesus wants your "work" to be a result of you believing Him. For example, Paul says that Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness, hence he was saved by faith.
James says that Abraham believed God and so took his only son to sacrifice to God. This was his believing the word that was spoken to him. Nobody could possibly imagine this is a work of God to sacrifice the son that God gave you through your faith. James says that what Abraham did here was a work and it showed that his faith was living. Abraham believed in a God of resurrection and his work demonstrated that.
Now if you were a Jew at the time of the Lord's speaking in John 6 to believe that Jesus was the Messiah would cause you to be thrown out of the temple. You live in a community where everything revolves around the temple. You wouldn't be allowed to go to the yearly feasts. No one would marry your son or daughter. Your wife would probably divorce you. This would be the equivalent of sacrificing your son on the altar. Paul did this, Peter did this, John did this. 2,000 years later we can easily see that what they did was a work of faith.
Sounds like those are works of men. I don't think the works Jesus of Nazareth was talking about was about what people may do, but rather what that individual with professing faith may do. Also, seems like those are some of the very troubles that Christians should not give to others.
John 16:33
33“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”
And by the way I like your profile picture. Reminds me of this verse:
1 Timothy 2:8
8Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing.
John 16:33
33“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”
And by the way I like your profile picture. Reminds me of this verse:
1 Timothy 2:8
8Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing.
Faith is the substance of belief.
Faith is generated by belief.[/QUOTE]
Faith is the substance of belief.
Faith is generated by belief.[/QUOTE]
I clicked "reply" to your post, and this is what it retrieved. In the original post, you had mixed the dialogue up so that it confuses readers. But then, that's what must be done to refute the truth. But as everyone can now see, God must've worked it all in spite of that, considering that I did was click "reply" and there's nothing left of the post but the truth, repeated!
Amen. Amen.
Faith is generated by belief.[/QUOTE]
Faith is the substance of belief.
Faith is generated by belief.[/QUOTE]
I clicked "reply" to your post, and this is what it retrieved. In the original post, you had mixed the dialogue up so that it confuses readers. But then, that's what must be done to refute the truth. But as everyone can now see, God must've worked it all in spite of that, considering that I did was click "reply" and there's nothing left of the post but the truth, repeated!
Amen. Amen.FreeGrace2 said:
Faith is WHAT we believe. That's the difference. If one believes in something, they HAVE faith in it. There is nothing "generated".
Check with any English grammar text for the definition of a noun and a verb. It's really very simple and clear.
What do you think the difference is between faith and believe?
Faith is WHAT we believe. That's the difference. If one believes in something, they HAVE faith in it. There is nothing "generated".
Check with any English grammar text for the definition of a noun and a verb. It's really very simple and clear.
What do you think the difference is between faith and believe?
Before I get into answering your/my question - I must ask, did you read post #213 addressed to you? You gave no response if you did. The new birth must be properly understood because it relates to the next question.
First, let me state that I do believe in Unconditional Election. Unconditional Election is defined as: God, of His own free will and purpose elected some, (In Scripture, sometimes referred to as a God's "remnant"), to Salvation in His Son. Unconditional, because it had nothing to do with what the elect individual would do or not do. Therefore, it is the ultimate expression of God's unmerited favor or mercy upon the recipient of His Elective Grace. Knowing this great Truth, by the believer, humbles that one because that one knows he has done nothing to deserve this mercy. Indeed, he only deserves God's just punishment. Knowing this, it increases the love the believer has for God and His Christ for showing mercy to one such as himself.
Now to the question at hand: Why did God Elect at all?
In short, because if He had not, then no flesh would be saved. Why would this be? Because the "Fall" left mankind with a dead and inoperative spirit. Before the Fall, Adam and Eve walked in the Garden with God. Their operative spirit and upright nature, allowed them to commune with God. However, after their sin, rather than communing with God they feared God.
Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
Their sin had destroyed the relationship they had enjoyed with God and brought this "fallen" condition upon all mankind. Now mankind was at enmity with God and his righteousness was as filthy rags before Him. In this condition, as sinners, lovers of self and at war with their God, they will not trust God nor hearken to His Words. This was and is our nature - after the Fall.
The Apostle Paul, in his epistle to the Romans, brings forth the indictments against us all before introducing us to the solution. These are some of the things he wrote under divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Indictments brought against mankind from Romans 1:18-3:20:
All of mankind had a knowledge of God through the things created by Him but rejected the truth thereof.
Rom 1:20-22 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: 21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
The state of humankind apart from God's unmerited Grace:
Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 There is none that understands, There is none that seeks after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
This then is just a taste of the Scriptures that indict mankind and show what Theologians call, spiritual depravity. Left in this "natural" state, none are righteous, none are understanding the things of God and none are actively seeking Him.
John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Because ye cannot hear my word.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
John 8:45 But because I say the truth, ye believe me not.
Instead, they actively seek Philosophy, Humanism, and Myths that lead to a religious life not based on the revealed Word of God. Oh, it looks something like it but is heavily flawed. Most religions will teach that man is general "good" and tries to do the right thing. That you can lift yourself up and change your life by believing on Jesus. Sounding more like a self-help seminar than a true church. These same religions, avoid teaching about sin and the Wrath to come.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts;
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside unto fables.
Knowing the "natural" man cannot receive or understand the things of the Spirit. (1 Cor. 2:14), God had to save out a remnant unto Himself - either that or destroy the whole world and start again but that would be foolishness because the results would be the same. ( I am not going into that right now ). He chose those whom He would show mercy and compassion upon, Hence, a remnant, just as it is spoken of in Romans:
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that is willing, nor of him that is running, but of God that hath mercy.
Rom 9:18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will is hardening.
Rom_9:27 And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:
Rom_11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Difficult to hear... yes? But does it give all the glory to God and man gets nothing? YES!
How did God choose from all Eternity - the Elected ones? This is much more difficult to answer because Scripture does not tell us why or what criteria God used, only that it pleased Him to do so. Therefore, it is not safe to speculate. It is tied to God's Eternal Foreknowledge but this still says nothing about how God chose whom He chose. Scripture does say this:
Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;
Rom 2:11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
Perhaps we should be satisfied with Paul's perceived question from the reader and his warning:
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who can stand against his will?
Rom_9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that comments against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?
This is a complicated doctrine and each point herein could be turned into a book - please ask me about anything which I have not made clear.
First, let me state that I do believe in Unconditional Election. Unconditional Election is defined as: God, of His own free will and purpose elected some, (In Scripture, sometimes referred to as a God's "remnant"), to Salvation in His Son. Unconditional, because it had nothing to do with what the elect individual would do or not do. Therefore, it is the ultimate expression of God's unmerited favor or mercy upon the recipient of His Elective Grace. Knowing this great Truth, by the believer, humbles that one because that one knows he has done nothing to deserve this mercy. Indeed, he only deserves God's just punishment. Knowing this, it increases the love the believer has for God and His Christ for showing mercy to one such as himself.
Now to the question at hand: Why did God Elect at all?
In short, because if He had not, then no flesh would be saved. Why would this be? Because the "Fall" left mankind with a dead and inoperative spirit. Before the Fall, Adam and Eve walked in the Garden with God. Their operative spirit and upright nature, allowed them to commune with God. However, after their sin, rather than communing with God they feared God.
Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
Their sin had destroyed the relationship they had enjoyed with God and brought this "fallen" condition upon all mankind. Now mankind was at enmity with God and his righteousness was as filthy rags before Him. In this condition, as sinners, lovers of self and at war with their God, they will not trust God nor hearken to His Words. This was and is our nature - after the Fall.
The Apostle Paul, in his epistle to the Romans, brings forth the indictments against us all before introducing us to the solution. These are some of the things he wrote under divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Indictments brought against mankind from Romans 1:18-3:20:
All of mankind had a knowledge of God through the things created by Him but rejected the truth thereof.
Rom 1:20-22 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: 21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
The state of humankind apart from God's unmerited Grace:
Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 There is none that understands, There is none that seeks after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
This then is just a taste of the Scriptures that indict mankind and show what Theologians call, spiritual depravity. Left in this "natural" state, none are righteous, none are understanding the things of God and none are actively seeking Him.
John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Because ye cannot hear my word.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
John 8:45 But because I say the truth, ye believe me not.
Instead, they actively seek Philosophy, Humanism, and Myths that lead to a religious life not based on the revealed Word of God. Oh, it looks something like it but is heavily flawed. Most religions will teach that man is general "good" and tries to do the right thing. That you can lift yourself up and change your life by believing on Jesus. Sounding more like a self-help seminar than a true church. These same religions, avoid teaching about sin and the Wrath to come.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts;
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside unto fables.
Knowing the "natural" man cannot receive or understand the things of the Spirit. (1 Cor. 2:14), God had to save out a remnant unto Himself - either that or destroy the whole world and start again but that would be foolishness because the results would be the same. ( I am not going into that right now ). He chose those whom He would show mercy and compassion upon, Hence, a remnant, just as it is spoken of in Romans:
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that is willing, nor of him that is running, but of God that hath mercy.
Rom 9:18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will is hardening.
Rom_9:27 And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:
Rom_11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Difficult to hear... yes? But does it give all the glory to God and man gets nothing? YES!
How did God choose from all Eternity - the Elected ones? This is much more difficult to answer because Scripture does not tell us why or what criteria God used, only that it pleased Him to do so. Therefore, it is not safe to speculate. It is tied to God's Eternal Foreknowledge but this still says nothing about how God chose whom He chose. Scripture does say this:
Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;
Rom 2:11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
Perhaps we should be satisfied with Paul's perceived question from the reader and his warning:
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who can stand against his will?
Rom_9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that comments against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?
This is a complicated doctrine and each point herein could be turned into a book - please ask me about anything which I have not made clear.
The Bible is very clear about election. It is election that is to service.
Wanna bet?
John 6-
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
Please don't try to tell me that Judas ever believed and was saved.
This verse says nothing about election. It tells us what God created those "in Christ" are to do: good works. Service again.
Why do you fight this so much? Just believe what the Bible says.
Wanna bet?
John 6-
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
Please don't try to tell me that Judas ever believed and was saved.
This verse says nothing about election. It tells us what God created those "in Christ" are to do: good works. Service again.
Why do you fight this so much? Just believe what the Bible says.
James chapter 1. Faith and works go together brother. You must be Doers of the word. Hearing the word, your deceiving yourself. God wont accept lip service. Those with spirtual sight are supposed to plant seeds for God, produce. How can God use Christian if their biblically illiterate. That's why we study the bible and plant seeds for God . Understand. Theirs lost souls in the world, their headed for hell. James chapter 6 to document, were to try to witness to the heathen. God has no pleasure in death of the wicked, Ezekiel chapter 33.