Is faith a work?

[awelight]

Salvation is to Service.

The two can't be separated.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I so agree. Salvation begets service to God and without salvation there can be no service to God.

The word chosen and election are interchangeable in many verses of Scripture. There can be a choosing unto God's purpose, that is apart from salvation. Such is the case with Judas, he was chosen to fulfill the purpose of God. So too, with Pharaoh, who was raised up so that God could manifest His power and establish His name. (Rom. 9:17).

However, as you know, in Eph. 1:4&5, God chose us (Elect believers), in Christ to be Holy and without blemish, having foreordained us unto adoption as sons... Therefore, God elected us to this purpose. How could one possibly be Holy and adopted as sons without salvation first, as FreeGrace2 attempts to imply? Foreordination and adoption, presupposes a group elected by God. Therefore, this group must be known before they can be foreordained or predestined. Likewise, it presupposes that this elected group must have salvation. This is common sense.

FreeGrace2 and his foolish claims that election is not to salvation, stands alone in this interpretation. I know of no commentary, of any writer, worth his grain of salt, that has ever made such a claim or attempted to uncouple the Doctrine of Election from the Doctrine of Soteriology. He has made Scripture a personal interpretation against the warnings in Scripture.

2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no spoken word of scripture is of private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For no spoken word ever came by the will of man: but men spoke from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 and his foolish claims that election is not to salvation, stands alone in this interpretation.

You just don't get around very much.

But since you think my view is foolish, surely you must have a verse that clearly teaches that election is to salvation.

I know of no commentary, of any writer, worth his grain of salt, that has ever made such a claim or attempted to uncouple the Doctrine of Election from the Doctrine of Soteriology. He has made Scripture a personal interpretation against the warnings in Scripture.

Eph 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

OK, so who does Paul mean by "us" here? Well, he actually defines who the "us" are in 1:19 - and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength

See? 1:4 tells us that God chose us (believers).

Next: chose believers for WHAT? "to be holy and blameless in his sight"

Are you going to argue that "to be holy and blameless" is salvation?

So, Eph 1:4 doesn't teach that God's election is to salvation. His election is to service,

1 Cor 1-
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

Do these verses sound like God chooses who will be saved? Of course not.

And don't forget Judas, who was chosen along with the other 11 disciples.

John 6-
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Again, nothing about salvation here.

So, if you have any verses that clearly show that election is to salvation, please share.

2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no spoken word of scripture is of private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For no spoken word ever came by the will of man: but men spoke from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit.

Right. I have quoted several verses that specifically show that election is to service.

Now, your turn.

 

[awelight]

You just don't get around very much.

But since you think my view is foolish, surely you must have a verse that clearly teaches that election is to salvation.


Eph 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

OK, so who does Paul mean by "us" here? Well, he actually defines who the "us" are in 1:19 - and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength

See? 1:4 tells us that God chose us (believers).

Next: chose believers for WHAT? "to be holy and blameless in his sight"

Are you going to argue that "to be holy and blameless" is salvation?

So, Eph 1:4 doesn't teach that God's election is to salvation. His election is to service,

1 Cor 1-
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

Do these verses sound like God chooses who will be saved? Of course not.

And don't forget Judas, who was chosen along with the other 11 disciples.

John 6-
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Again, nothing about salvation here.

So, if you have any verses that clearly show that election is to salvation, please share.


Right. I have quoted several verses that specifically show that election is to service.

Now, your turn.

As I said before, discussing this with you would be pointless. You are convinced in your own mind but your interpretation is flawed.

Rather than I discuss it with you, why don't you show us support for this view from past preachers or other church patriarchs. Show us where any of the past writers would agree with this view. Otherwise, it is just your personal interpretation.

 

[Grandpa]

The Bible is very clear about election. It is election that is to service.


Wanna bet?

John 6-
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Please don't try to tell me that Judas ever believed and was saved.


This verse says nothing about election. It tells us what God created those "in Christ" are to do: good works. Service again.

Why do you fight this so much? Just believe what the Bible says.

So you are saying that God fore-ordained Judas to betray Christ?

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Do you view Judas to be created in Christ Jesus unto GOOD WORKS?


Just believe what the bible says.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You just don't get around very much.

But since you think my view is foolish, surely you must have a verse that clearly teaches that election is to salvation.

As I said before, discussing this with you would be pointless.

I understand. I keep giving you an opportunity to support your view with biblical evidence and you don't.

Unless you have verses that clearly support your claims, it would be pointless to continue discussion.

You are convinced in your own mind but your interpretation is flawed.

I am convinced by Scripture, just as the Bereans were convinced of what Paul said because they found Scriptures that said what Paul said. Acts 17:11.

However, since you claim that my interpretation is flawed, I will challenge you to prove it with evidence.

Rather than I discuss it with you, why don't you show us support for this view from past preachers or other church patriarchs.

Rather than try to punt, why can't you prove what you always claim?

And why would I lean on "past preachers/other church patriarchs" when I have the Scriptures themselves.

I've already given you a few verses that SAY exactly what I have been SAYING. So I don't need crutches to support my claims.

Show us where any of the past writers would agree with this view.

Who cares what the opinions of others are when I am quoting Scriptures that clearly show that election is to service?

Otherwise, it is just your personal interpretation.

Well, then prove it. Either show that my interpretation is flawed by proving the verses I have shared actually say something else, or quote verses that actually show election being to salvation.

 

[VCO]

Dear brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ of Nazareth, our Lord and Savior,

Please read this OP before answering.

Serious question looking for some answers. Thought maybe I could find some here. I want to post two scriptures and see what people conclude. I’ll post the KJV.

My question is this: is faith in Christ a work?

John 6:28,29 KJV
28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Ephesians 2:8,9 KJV
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If I understand correctly, Jesus is saying that the work God wants us to do to have salvation of our soul is to believe on His Son Jesus Christ.

However, Paul says that we are given a gift of being saved because of our faith and that it has nothing to do with our works or self-effort.

Can someone explain this to me? Thank you.

Genuine Faith is a Gift from GOD. Fake Faith is something conjured up in the human brain.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you are saying that God fore-ordained Judas to betray Christ?

No, I am saying exactly what Jesus said to the 12. That He chose them, and they didn't choose Him.

Listen in again:

John 6;70,71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Do you think Judas hoodwinked Jesus or that Jesus just made a poor decision here?

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

How does this verse support your view?

Do you view Judas to be created in Christ Jesus unto GOOD WORKS?

Judas wasn't saved so this verse doesn't even apply to him.

Just believe what the bible says.

Why don't YOU? I've shown verses that plainly say that election is for service by naming the service.

Where have you supplied even 1 verse that shows election is to salvation?

 

[Grandpa]

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Genuine Faith is a Gift from GOD. Fake Faith is something conjured up in the human brain.

Do you have a verse that says this? Eph 2:8 doesn't say that, in spite of the many pastors and pew warmers who claim that it does.

In the Greek, words that are connected have the SAME gender.

For it is by grace you have been saved (feminine gender), through faith (masculine gender)—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift (feminine gender) of God—

So, as you can see here, it is salvation and gift that are in the same gender.

You can check this out on biblehub.com and see for yourself that I am not making this up.

 

[awelight]

FreeGrace2 said:
You just don't get around very much.

But since you think my view is foolish, surely you must have a verse that clearly teaches that election is to salvation.

I understand. I keep giving you an opportunity to support your view with biblical evidence and you don't.

Unless you have verses that clearly support your claims, it would be pointless to continue discussion.


I am convinced by Scripture, just as the Bereans were convinced of what Paul said because they found Scriptures that said what Paul said. Acts 17:11.

However, since you claim that my interpretation is flawed, I will challenge you to prove it with evidence.


Rather than try to punt, why can't you prove what you always claim?

And why would I lean on "past preachers/other church patriarchs" when I have the Scriptures themselves.

I've already given you a few verses that SAY exactly what I have been SAYING. So I don't need crutches to support my claims.


Who cares what the opinions of others are when I am quoting Scriptures that clearly show that election is to service?


Well, then prove it. Either show that my interpretation is flawed by proving the verses I have shared actually say something else, or quote verses that actually show election being to salvation.

Well, then prove it. Either show that my interpretation is flawed by proving the verses I have shared actually say something else, or quote verses that actually show election being to salvation

That sir...I have tried to do on many occasions...but you reject true evidence.

I said in my previous post:

"Rather than I discuss it with you, why don't you show us support for this view from past preachers or other church patriarchs.
Otherwise, it is just your personal interpretation."

Thank you for so eloquently proving my point with these two responses.

"And why would I lean on "past preachers/other church patriarchs" when I have the Scriptures themselves.
Who cares what the opinions of others are when I am quoting Scriptures that clearly show that election is to service?"

 

[FreeGrace2]

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

The Greek word for "ordained" is tasso, and in the 8 uses in the NT, translated "ordained" or "appointed" in this 1 verse. The word comes from military use and means "to line up in order". And the voice is either middle or passive, and depends on the context to determine, since the form of this word is the same for both middle and passive. If in the middle voice, the verb means the person/group did it to themselves, and if in the passive voice, it means the action was produced by someone else.

Your view is that the verb is in the passive voice, except there is no suggestion from the text that God did it.

However, the text clearly supports the middle voice, based on these verses:

Acts 13-
42 As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath.
43 When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.

So, they lined themselves up to hear Paul. There is nothing here about God ordaining anyone to eternal life.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This verse says that believers were created "unto good works". And that believers "should walk in them".

It says nothing about election to salvation. It is clearly about service.

Unless you don't think doing good works is any kind of service to the King.

 

[Grandpa]

Do you have a verse that says this? Eph 2:8 doesn't say that, in spite of the many pastors and pew warmers who claim that it does.

In the Greek, words that are connected have the SAME gender.

For it is by grace you have been saved (feminine gender), through faith (masculine gender)—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift (feminine gender) of God—

So, as you can see here, it is salvation and gift that are in the same gender.

You can check this out on biblehub.com and see for yourself that I am not making this up.

Ephesians 2:8 absolutely DOES say that faith is a gift of God.

And Ephesians 2:9 and 2:10 back that up.

Why don't you just believe scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well, then prove it. Either show that my interpretation is flawed by proving the verses I have shared actually say something else, or quote verses that actually show election being to salvation

That sir...I have tried to do on many occasions...but you reject true evidence.

Rather, I have explained how your "evidence" wasn't.

I said in my previous post:

"Rather than I discuss it with you, why don't you show us support for this view from past preachers or other church patriarchs.
Otherwise, it is just your personal interpretation."

Thank you for so eloquently proving my point with these two responses.

Once again, you have just dodged the issue about evidence. You have NEVER quoted any verse that made clear that election is to salvation, so quit pretending that you have.

"And why would I lean on "past preachers/other church patriarchs" when I have the Scriptures themselves.
Who cares what the opinions of others are when I am quoting Scriptures that clearly show that election is to service?"

So you would take the "word" of others' opinions about what the Word says rather than what the Word says.

Well, good luck with that. I prefer to follow the study methods of the Bereans.

 

[Runningman]

Genuine Faith is a Gift from GOD. Fake Faith is something conjured up in the human brain.

Seems the Bible is clear that faith is not a gift and there aren't any verses that say it is.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you have a verse that says this? Eph 2:8 doesn't say that, in spite of the many pastors and pew warmers who claim that it does.

In the Greek, words that are connected have the SAME gender.

For it is by grace you have been saved (feminine gender), through faith (masculine gender)—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift (feminine gender) of God—

So, as you can see here, it is salvation and gift that are in the same gender.

You can check this out on biblehub.com and see for yourself that I am not making this up.

Ephesians 2:8 absolutely DOES say that faith is a gift of God.

Wow. Are you just stubborn, or what???

But go ahead and ignore Greek grammar which determines how words connect. All you want.

I will stay with what true scholars have taught about the Greek. I have proved that salvation and gift share the same gender and faith is the opposite. But go ahead and believe whatever you choose to believe.

I will believe what was actually written. The Dr Luke would be appalled at your attitude.

And Ephesians 2:9 and 2:10 back that up.

Why don't you just believe scripture.

Again, I do. It's you with the problem. You don't like what the Scripture actually says.

You have been taught false doctrine and don't want to let go of it. Sad.

You make claims about what verses say and they DON'T SAY what you claim they say.

So add a reading problem to your list.

 

[Grandpa]

There is nothing here about God ordaining anyone to eternal life.

Except scritpure stating it.

This verse says that believers were created "unto good works". And that believers "should walk in them".

It says nothing about election to salvation. It is clearly about service.

Unless you don't think doing good works is any kind of service to the King.

This whole section is about Salvation.

Read Ephesians 2:8-10 as a whole.

It plainly states that those who are saved are those who were elected to service.


There is no election to service without Salvation.

 

[Grandpa]

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you have a verse that says this? Eph 2:8 doesn't say that, in spite of the many pastors and pew warmers who claim that it does.

In the Greek, words that are connected have the SAME gender.

For it is by grace you have been saved (feminine gender), through faith (masculine gender)—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift (feminine gender) of God—

So, as you can see here, it is salvation and gift that are in the same gender.

You can check this out on biblehub.com and see for yourself that I am not making this up.

Wow. Are you just stubborn, or what???

But go ahead and ignore Greek grammar which determines how words connect. All you want.

I will stay with what true scholars have taught about the Greek. I have proved that salvation and gift share the same gender and faith is the opposite. But go ahead and believe whatever you choose to believe.

I will believe what was actually written. The Dr Luke would be appalled at your attitude.


Again, I do. It's you with the problem. You don't like what the Scripture actually says.

You have been taught false doctrine and don't want to let go of it. Sad.

You make claims about what verses say and they DON'T SAY what you claim they say.

So add a reading problem to your list.

I love what scripture states.

It states, very clearly, that Faith is a gift from God.

It states that Salvation is NOT OF OURSELVES.

It states that Salvation is NOT OF WORKS.


So you have a choice. Believe scripture. Or believe your opinion.

Why don't you believe scripture?


If faith is not a gift of God then it is a work of people. And that would make the scripture false. Which is what your philosophy attempts to make scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
There is nothing here about God ordaining anyone to eternal life.

Except scritpure stating it.

Where? Not Acts 13:48. Not isn't even mentioned in the verse. And I explained the middle voice of tasso, which is supported by v.42-44.

This whole section is about Salvation.

OK.

Read Ephesians 2:8-10 as a whole.

Which has nothing to do with Acts 13:48 and being about Gentiles lining up for eternal life.

It plainly states that those who are saved are those who were elected to service.

Right!! Not elected to salvation. That is my point.

There is no election to service without Salvation.

I've already proved otherwise in John 6:70,71

70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Judas never believed, so he was never saved in the first place. He was chosen as the betrayer.

By that I don't mean that being chosen as betrayer that he was forced to do it. It is just that God always knew he would and gave him the opportunity to do the deed.

The nation or people of Israel were chosen, but not to salvation. Just read through the OT and see how many unbelievers there were among the Jews.

Acts 7:51 - “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

 

[Cameron143]

If the Bible said that faith is a gift I would likely reassess what I currently believe regarding faith being a work. I have yet to find any such verse.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says salvation and grace and faith are all gifts.

 

[awelight]

Seems the Bible is clear that faith is not a gift and there aren't any verses that say it is.

If you are following someone like FreeGrace2, then I do not know what to say. He is lost as a Rocky Mountain Billy goat.

Likewise, do you think the internet or a site like Biblehub.com is the last word on Greek grammatical arguments? I thought better of you.