Trinity or Unity

No one is born of God from birth. So all are separated by sin, dead to God and unable to love God. If your understanding was correct, no one could be saved. In Adam, all die (1 Corinthians 15:22). If it was not possible to repent, then no one could be saved and Jesus died in vain.

The unforgivable sin is to call the work of the Holy Spirit evil. (Mark 3:20-30). I met a young man, at Teen Challenge, who constantly mocked Christians. He went from church to church, sponging off them where he could and laughing at their gullibility. I went overseas for a few months (Navy). I met him again at Teen Challenge. He was in tears of joy. He had just been born again and his face shone like an angel.

The unforgivable sin only remains while people keep on with their blasphemous attitude. If they repent, then the offence is gone and God's forgiveness is available again.

This may seem a strangely basic issue to many, as they have this matter entrenched in their mind, but my background makes me unsure of things. I'll briefly elaborate, although at the moment, I'm not thinking as clearly as I otherwise would.
I was not born into a Christian (or any other religious) home and in my teens was a vehement atheist. I was later more questioning and when I was 26, I met people from a religious group called "The Way" (I don't know how many readers have heard of them). They were unitarians (with a small "u" - not the main Unitarian church). At that time, I knew almost nothing about the Bible and precious little about science.
They invited me to attend their meetings, which after a bit I did. I bought some of their literature.
After reading something of theirs, I was stricken with terror. It was about the unforgivable sin. They rendered the matter as follows - paraphrasing:- "He who is born of God has eternal life and the love of God. He who is born of the Devil has eternal death and the hate of the Devil. You cannot repent of seed - it is permanent".
I thought about what I may have done in the past and my former vehemently ungodly attitude.
During the next few months, I frantically interacted with many (nominally) Christian people and denominations, trying to glean knowledge. On the whole to a lesser extent, this attempt at learning and uncertainty has been with me ever since - I'm now 63.
I've "seen" things from both Trinitarian and Unitarian perspectives. I'd say, in the NT, there is, at least on prima facie considerstion, some material that supports either view.
I'd be interested in reading others' (preferably Bible-based) reasoning on this matter.

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The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One. Do you find such things as triangles complex? A triangle is three points and is one object.

The Son manifested on Earth and went to the Cross, the Spirit currently manifests within us, and the Father was how God presented Himself to His people in the OT. All and One existed from eternity past and shall exist for eternity future.

It is ok to not grasp it, but it is not ok to deny it. Just remember that the Father and Son did talk to each other when the Son was on Earth. The Spirit is present here below while the Father and Son currently reside in Heaven.

You are still ignoring the fact that trinitarians teach 3 different persons with one mind. The Bible clearly teaches the Lord has a mind and the Holy Spirit has a mind. If the Lord is not the Holy Spirit that is 2 different minds.

You are still ignoring the fact that trinitarians teach 3 different persons with one mind.

The Athenasian creed sums it up nicely. When you see the word Catholic, don't panic it is not referring to 'Roman' Catholic but to the universal (Catholic) body of Christ. The church.


Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith [ as taught in scripture not Roman Catholic]

Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

This is the

This is the work of God that you believe on Him whom God has sent. Salvation by grace through faith. We are born again , as Babes in Christ we will grow in grace and the knowledge of the lord and Savior. We don't know to much when we are saved , but believing Jesus is risen from the dead is essential . Knowledge of God and Understanding is not necessary . When we are converted , We know it , but we don't know all of the things a lengthy treatise of doctrine declares necessary. Revelation puts it simply these are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Knowledge of God for the Christian is necessary.

Babes in christ may not have a full understanding, that is true but:

Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God Heb 6:1.

Unfortunatley, some don't seem to want to mature.

This is not a debate , if there is agreement there will be no splitting off to another topic. Maturity in Christ and seeking maturity in Christ is not the topic . Salvation what must I do to be saved ? , seems to be where we were. I disagree with all this knowledge that must be necessary. It isn't. I agree it is unfortunate that some don't seem to want to be mature but that is not the topic . It is trinitarianism vs. unitarianism. I'm thinking If Jesus is The Word of The Father , Why is He speaking from the Clouds while being baptized ? I just know I go to Jesus , I have scripture to reveal what I can understand of God. Jesus being called the Everlasting Father in Isaiah , the brightness of the Fathers glory in Hebrews 1, The Spirit being called both the Spirit of God , the Spirit of the Father , the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit , the Spirit of Him that raised Christ from the dead.

The topic is 'Trinity'

But since you asked you are conflating Justification and our subsequent walk with Christ, our sanctification.. Where prayerfully we mature in the things of Faith.

The Athenasian creed sums it up nicely. When you see the word Catholic, don't panic it is not referring to 'Roman' Catholic but to the universal (Catholic) body of Christ. The church.


Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith [ as taught in scripture not Roman Catholic]

Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

we know in the Old Testament the WORD came down to mankind and dealt with them. He visited Adam in the Garden, met with Moses, ate with Abraham, wrestled with Jacob, allowed Joshua to fleece Him. then He came as a child and Died for our sins and Resurrected from the Dead. the WORD [LOGOS] means SCRIPTURE. as in Scripture is about Him from Genesis to Revelation.

the one constant i am reminded of is that God can be 3 or He could have just been 1 Person.

during Sodom the Scripture tells us the Fire and Brimstone rained from the [[LORD]] on earth from the [[LORD]] in Heaven. this is Omnipresence.

John 14:10 tells us while we know the Father was on His Throne in Heaven, He was also living inside the body of Jesus doing His works.

Kings and Chronicles shows us a PICTURE of ALL of HEAVEN, the entire HOST, and we only see 1 Person of God [[((this Verse is REPEATED TWICE))]] so there's a reason God wanted us to see it TWICE.

All i am saying is God can do what He did with 3 or with 1 because He is SPIRIT. as SPIRIT He is everywhere and John 14:10 included in the flesh body of Jesus while also in Heaven.

so it does not matter to me 3 or 1 because even Matthew 28:19 says in the NAME [[singular]] ((not plural)).

so we don't really know and it's STUPID TO HAVE THIS ARGUMENT!

I met people from a religious group called "The Way"

we know in the Old Testament the WORD came down to mankind and dealt with them. He visited Adam in the Garden, met with Moses, ate with Abraham, wrestled with Jacob, allowed Joshua to fleece Him. then He came as a child and Died for our sins and Resurrected from the Dead. the WORD [LOGOS] means SCRIPTURE. as in Scripture is about Him from Genesis to Revelation.

the one constant i am reminded of is that God can be 3 or He could have just been 1 Person.

during Sodom the Scripture tells us the Fire and Brimstone rained from the [[LORD]] on earth from the [[LORD]] in Heaven. this is Omnipresence.

John 14:10 tells us while we know the Father was on His Throne in Heaven, He was also living inside the body of Jesus doing His works.

Kings and Chronicles shows us a PICTURE of ALL of HEAVEN, the entire HOST, and we only see 1 Person of God [[((this Verse is REPEATED TWICE))]] so there's a reason God wanted us to see it TWICE.

All i am saying is God can do what He did with 3 or with 1 because He is SPIRIT. as SPIRIT He is everywhere and John 14:10 included in the flesh body of Jesus while also in Heaven.

so it does not matter to me 3 or 1 because even Matthew 28:19 says in the NAME [[singular]] ((not plural)).

so we don't really know and it's STUPID TO HAVE THIS ARGUMENT!

Gideon fleeced him. We will understand the trinity by and by I just want the precious Blood between me and Him. I'll go to Jesus. "The one that comes to me I will in no wise cast out." KJV

Ah - Victor Paul Weirwille's "The WAY international, New Knoxville Ohio (now largely defunct)

I lived in the next town over (St Marys) for several years. I did go to a "TWIG" meetings - not because I took any of their garbage seriously, but just to observe. One of their teaching was that NOTHING you did in the body effected your spiritual condition. So they could REALLY "Party down", and of course you NEVER wanted to do business with a "Wayfer" as they were known in the area. And for $400 (as I recall) they'd teach you to speak in tongues, interpret tongues, and give prophesy on cue.

"One of their teaching was that NOTHING you did in the body effected your spiritual condition. "
They had that one correct. But obviously one has to be truly saved.