Former pentecostal

read these 2 Verses as they were actually written by Paul.

10 when, however, the perfect has come, that; in part shall come to naught.

12 For now we see by means of a mirror in an enigma, but then face to face:
^

tell me, how can you look at the Bible and see an Enigma? you cannot because it is the WORD of God which is Truth!

secondly, how can you look at the Bible Face to Face? you cannot because it has no face!


you are Cherry Picking Verse 10 and blindly refusing to look at Verse 12 when it's an entire sentiment Passage of Scripture.


is your Doctrine based upon 1 word here or there or the Whole Word of God?

Well, that is a good point but we cannot assume that what is said in chapters 13:8-10 means canonization. BUT we can with the chapters in 10 through 15 see Paul speak more about seeing Jesus than not. Tomany hang their hats on 1cor 13:8-10

YET do so at the expense of the chapters before and after.

We must look at the full word of God in the complete book and parallel scriptures.

To understand what Paul was saying in 1cor 13:8-10, one must look at chapters 12 and 14. With this in mind, how does Love measure up in the believer's life if using the gifts of the Holy Spirit? Is chapter 12 mention anything about the Lords coming or 11 or 10? How bout 14? or 15?

Does the book or letter say anything more than what Cessationist thinks is said in 1cor 13:8-10? The authorial intent must be applied.

AS to seeing Jesus or the coming of the Lord. 1cor says:

Chapter 1: 6-7 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,

This was said in the opening from the opening of the letter it is paramount.

8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Chapter 2;

Spiritual wisdom:

6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

Sounds like some f what is talked about in 1cor 13 and 12 and 14

Chapter3:

Avoid Worldly Wisdom:

20 and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” 21 Therefore let no one boast in men. For all things are yours: 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come—all are yours. 23 And you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

Chapter 4:

Mysteries of GOD:

4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts.

Chapter 5:

Immorality Must Be Judged:

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to [f]keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.


Chapter 6:

Glorify God in Body and Spirit:

12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not [e]helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of [f]any. 13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.

Chapter 7:

Principles of Marriage:


Chapter 8:

Be Sensitive to Conscience:

8 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge [a]puffs up, but love [b]edifies. 2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.


Chapter 9:

Striving for a Crown:


Chapter 10:

10 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

chapter 11:

Examine Yourself:

26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.


As we see from the opening of the letter to the closing in chapter 16, The coming of the Lord and seeing him is well established many times in the letter.


When PAUL SAYS IN 1COR 13:8-10

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

THIS CAN NOT BE FULLY UNDERSTOOD WITHOUT THE CHAPTER BEFORE AND AFTER THIS STATEMENT.

THE APPEARING OF JESUS

The word of God is what has convince me

The whole word.. the KJV has looking into a mirror dimly then face to face..

Partial reflection to whole. Scripture in process.. not a full reflection ... early churches not fully developed.. in process.. become established.. apostles ministry.. in process not fully done.. become completed.

The Bible is a full reflection of who we are. Applying it to our lives reflects our selves in comparison to Jesus. It is a figurative mirror.

'The perfect law of liberty'

'The measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ'

No, it doesn't. The Bible is what we are to live by and obey.



12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Paul says I know in Part What Part? This man was taken in the three Heaven and received revelation from the Lord Himself You mean the canonization completed his understanding?

NO the Bible is the word of God. No one fully knows all; therefore, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still needed because edification, comfort, and exhortation is still needed.

Paul says while we are looking through the mirror, that is darkened Or dimly, we have three things :

Faith, Hope, and Love. The greatest is canonization? No, it is Love.

I was actually thinking of a comparison with Preterism as well! Spot on.

If I would say what you actually deserve to be said with your koo koo post, people would gasp but secretly laugh

I also think you are confusing the devil with God Almighty. I wonder why that would be

Kleronos I am done with your unbiblical and way silly argument that Paul had a literal thorn in his side and walked around bent over.

It is nonsense and I am not entertaining it any longer.

I would love to see you in a debate with the Apostle Paul tho. I would even make popcorn for such a special event. Oh that cannot happen you say? Yours is a special delusion.

........................................................................................................

It is really just simple reading and comprehension. Me, I don't make the words tell the story I want to hear, I let the words tell me the story I am supposed to hear, no matter what the story is. But that's just me. That's how the Holy Spirit leads.

But please, take it to an ENGLISH PROFESSOR or maybe an expert in Greek languages


as ask him

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations there was given to me a thorn


AND worse YET, would be to call The Lord God Almighty, the devil


So, as you wish, this will be my last response

enlighten me about something if you would or can:

the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Century had access to most authentic original Greek texts available.

why do we have account after account of the Church Fathers claiming to Speak in Tongues, professing the Gifts continued, if your theory is correct?

how is it we have a 2,000 year history from Paul to the Church Fathers to Church Historians claiming the Gifts never Ceased and continued to modern day?

A thorn, a sharp persistent sticking (of the) flesh... that Paul prays, take from me... Have you ever prayed, take this (particular) sin from me, but it persists? And of course, Satan always takes that opportunity to gloat to you about it each time? Although I don't know what it was exactly, I'm convinced this is a persistent sin, that is his weakness, and for which God's "grace is sufficient."

Depends on what the 'church fathers' believed.

Infant baptism

Elevation of saints and Mary to worship them

Having a priest over multiple congregations

Having rituals and works to earn salvation

Idolisings saints.

All unbiblical, happening early on in the churches.

So.. some of the supposed church fathers could have been way off beam!

Gotta take a case by case basis on what the church fathers believed.

Plus... there is a whole line of persecuted Christians separate and in hiding.. that didn't get their leaders in the limelight as 'church fathers' they kept saying pure faith .. didn't give in to infant baptism or working for salvation.. or idolising saints.. and the majority of these who were called anabaptists . . And then baptists . .. didn't emphasize the sign gifts.

The Bible doesn’t say spiritual gifts have ceased and clearly they haven’t since they’re still active. I know for a fact that the gift of prophecy and healing via laying on of hands is still in effect because I’ve experienced them.

As far as tongues go, it’s for a specific purpose when/if it’s necessary, but I’ve never personally experienced it. I know someone who says he has spoken in tongues and I believe him because his character is trustworthy and genuine. I believe in all of the spiritual gifts.

Well, I guess they’ve never experienced spiritual gifts themselves nor believed it if they saw someone else exercise their spiritual gifts. I believe the bottom line is a lack of faith. How many times did Jesus require faith as a prerequisite to a miraculous work? Often.

Matthew 13:58
58And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

Mark 9:21-23
21Jesus asked the boy’s father, “How long has this been with him?”
“From childhood,” he said.
22“It often throws him into the fire or into the water, trying to kill him. But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.”
23“If You can?” echoed Jesus. “All things are possible to him who believes!”

Matthew 17:19,20
19Afterward the disciples came to Jesus privately and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”
20“Because you have so little faith,” He answered. “For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

And many more verses than this, but we get the picture now.

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations there was given to me a thorn


because of the abundance of revelations he was given, he was also given a particular SIN? Is that what you are saying?

A thorn in the flesh, which is explained specifically as an angel/messenger of satan, so it's like something that keeps leaving notes to him from satan which keeps "humiliating" him if I use an extreme example of the word humility. But yea, not that it has to be anything on the extreme end of sin, like a murderous heart, that would be a mote rather than a splinter, This is something more like a splinter that sticks, that is imbedded in his 'flesh' but a little thorn rather than a spike, which satan would rather have piercing him if it were up to him. I can only speculate what the thorn might be, irritation at his neighbor perhaps, idk. Though it is finished, and we should live in that reality, our perfection, or completion, doesn't come until we see Him coming again in the clouds. Until then, we abide in a yet but not yet, or not yet but yet, state of perfection.

I do not believe the gifts will or have ceased, I just believe like FALSE doctrines come forth as 'prophesy' FALSE tongues come forth as being HEARD by those around them when in reality there is nothing there. Those who truly do, don't do it to be seen

But would you agree with

The [one] for speaking in a tongue not to men speaks but to God NO ONE FOR HEARS,

in the Spirit however he utters mysteries

those TRULY speaking a 'tongue' are not heard speaking that tongue but WHAT IS REVEALED, that is what should be heard by men? To me, CONFUSION does not make anyone look good, the one doing it sounds ignorant, the one listening looks ignorant and the ones promoting it, are ignorant.

The [one] however prophesying to men speaks [for] edification and encouragement and consolation

The [one] speaking in a tongue himself edifies, the [one] however prophesying [the] church edifies

I desire now all you to speak in tongues rather however that you should prophesy, greater now the [one] prophesying than the [one] speaking in tongues except if not he should interpret so that the church edification might receive

If one has spoken to God in tongues and received a message THAT is what should be heard, spoken. It is to edify the church.


Now however brothers if I should come to you in tongues speaking what you will I profit if not to you I should speak either IN REVELATION OR IN KNOWLEDGE OR IN PROPHECY OR IN TEACHING


I

Yes I absolutely agree. Maybe a sure sign to be cautious is if someone is claiming final authority on something because they are allegedly a prophet. What creates skepticism is that anyone can say they’re a prophet and then make something up, possibly deceiving others. A prophet should be able to establish credibility based on the accuracy of their messages and the Biblical soundness of them.

Then again, there will always be naysayers because people have never agreed on what the scriptures say. Also, people are particularly vicious against real prophets. It appears a number of them were martyred according to Jesus.

Matthew 23:37
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee…

As for speaking in tongues, I don’t think tongues is random syllables. To me it seems like it was being given the ability to speak in someone else’s language for the purpose of preaching the gospel. At one point God confused the languages at the Tower of Babel, can’t He unconfuse the languages and allow someone to be able to utter words to someone in their own tongue? Seems like that’s the case to me.