Former pentecostal

[Clayman]

someone brought up a good point in our discussion so it made me do some serious research. translation can really DESTROY the meaning of the Inspired Holy Word of God.

let's examine 1 Corinthians 13:10 from the 1,100 year later [1516 textus receptus] Latin to English translation:
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
^
the key word is the ((placement)) of the word "THAT" in the beginning of this Verse.

this particular placement does give some life to the idea this [[is not]] speaking about Christ but an Object.

how this is placed in the 16th and 17th Century really destroys the original Greek Version from the 4th Century.


so let's look at the 4th Century Greek Text:
10 όταν, όμως, έχει έρθει το τέλειο, αυτό? εν μέρει θα αποτύχει.
10 when, however, the perfect has come, that; in part shall come to naught.
^
when we read it how it was originally written by Paul, now it makes more sense why the Church Fathers said this is the Glorified Jesus.
which gives more life and connection to Verse 12:
12 For now we see by means of a mirror in an enigma, but then face to face:

There still is no personal pro noun in the verse, A charismatic would be black and blue if they were raised up in my household, for example if my Father asked me where I got the food from and I replied "from that thing in the kitchen"
If my mother heard and thought I was referring to her I would have a clip round the ear, not just for incorrect grammar but for disrespecting her by calling her an inanimate object, same goes for calling her an it, a lesson learnt at a young age.

Yet my father understands grammar and knew I was referring the fridge.

Whether or not the verse is referringto the bible the least some could do would be to admit the verse read in isolation taken by itself seems to indicate the possibility of the bible being spoken of here.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

There still is no personal pro noun in the verse, A charismatic would be black and blue if they were raised up in my household, for example if my Father asked me where I got the food from and I replied "from that thing in the kitchen"
If my mother heard and thought I was referring to her I would have a clip round the ear, not just for incorrect grammar but for disrespecting her by calling her an inanimate object, same goes for calling her an it, a lesson learnt at a young age.

Yet my father understands grammar and knew I was referring the fridge.

Whether or not the verse is referringto the bible the least some could do would be to admit the verse read in isolation taken by itself seems to indicate the possibility of the bible being spoken of here.

When Paul wrote his letters he did not know they would be gathered into a collection. No one was thinking about the Bible. To put such emphasis on to something you literally must assume is foolishness.

No one writing about Jesus and their experiences was thinking this will become part of the Tanakh.

You just assume this because men eventually did make it a part.

Nowhere in the New Testament do we read these things being written will become part of a bigger collection.

Therefore to assume Paul is speaking about the Bible to come is as made up as the Easter Bunny.

This idea the Perfection to come was the complete Bible is so far fetched when we know Paul was writing a letter to a people that he had no idea would be used one day as a Book. It was a LETTER TO A SPECIFIC PEOPLE. And then foolish people say he was thinking about a Bible.

The idea alone is a pure joke!

 

[Nehemiah6]

When Paul wrote his letters he did not know they would be gathered into a collection.

That is merely an assumption and a presumption. Paul was a prophet as much as an apostle, and was fully aware that he was giving forth the Word of God. Indeed he encouraged churches to circulate his letters. And even while Paul was alive Peter designated them as "Scripture".

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

They had the 4 Gospels and was preaching based off that. To them, the Gospels would have concluded the Bible.

To PRETEND every letter Paul wrote he was thinking all 13 would 1 day be gathered and turned into Books and added to the Canon is about as stupid as it gets.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

The Prophets wrote on Scrolls.

Paul wrote personal letters addressing CURRENT EVENTS.

 

[Nehemiah6]

One thing is for certain after many posts. There has not been any scripture to support the idea or claims of "So I decided that cessationists are right. The Bible is " that which is perfect." found in 1cor 13:8-10. It is just not there.

Paul was writing by divine inspiration. He did not say "When He who is perfect is come...". Rather he said "When that which is complete is come..." That Greek word teleios* (τέλειος) should have been translated as "complete".
*Strong's Concordance
teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Definition: having reached its end, complete, perfect
Usage: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.

And that is why the NIV (which I normally shun) says this: but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

Prophecy, tongues, and knowledge were all related to divine revelations, and while the Bible was incomplete, they were all necessary. But when the Bible was completed, they were not needed.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

so let's look at the 4th Century Greek Text:
10 όταν, όμως, έχει έρθει το τέλειο, αυτό? εν μέρει θα αποτύχει.
10 when, however, the perfect has come, that; in part shall come to naught.
^
when we read it how it was originally written by Paul, now it makes more sense why the Church Fathers said this is the Glorified Jesus.
which gives more life and connection to Verse 12:
12 For now we see by means of a mirror in an enigma, but then face to face:[/QUOTE]

The True Version Paul wrote.

I'm sick and tired of the mistranslated kjv it has perverted the Truth!

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Verse 12 cannot be any clearer about now we only see an enigma.

When we envision Jesus today in our minds it is ONLY AN ENIGMA.

But soon we will see face to face.

What will we see?

The Perfection to come.


Using the proper Greek explains this so clearly to think anything else is creating false ideas.

 

[Clayman]

When Paul wrote his letters he did not know they would be gathered into a collection. No one was thinking about the Bible. To put such emphasis on to something you literally must assume is foolishness.

No one writing about Jesus and their experiences was thinking this will become part of the Tanakh.

You just assume this because men eventually did make it a part.

Nowhere in the New Testament do we read these things being written will become part of a bigger collection.

Therefore to assume Paul is speaking about the Bible to come is as made up as the Easter Bunny.


This idea the Perfection to come was the complete Bible is so far fetched when we know Paul was writing a letter to a people that he had no idea would be used one day as a Book. It was a LETTER TO A SPECIFIC PEOPLE. And then foolish people say he was thinking about a Bible.

The idea alone is a pure joke!

I think Paul for sure knew the words he was penning were inspired and would be added to the other inspired writings, but it's a moot point anyway, it doesn't make any difference, God inspired the letters and He knew the letters would be used to complete the Holy writ.

Daniel didn't understand all he had written for he studied what he wrote to try and understand it, and I think he also would have presumed the book he wrote would be added to the Books. So I guess in saying that I give Paul more credit than you do, and Paul wasn't dumb he would have understood pretty quickly the perfect/complete was not the return of the Lord.

Im trying not to assume anything, In fact if you give the verse to language students who haven't read a Bible, they would apply the same simple unbiased understanding of the text I have. If it means something else then I'm just saying the simplest understanding (which can happen) is incorrect.

 

[Grandpa]

so let's look at the 4th Century Greek Text:
10 όταν, όμως, έχει έρθει το τέλειο, αυτό? εν μέρει θα αποτύχει.
10 when, however, the perfect has come, that; in part shall come to naught.
^
when we read it how it was originally written by Paul, now it makes more sense why the Church Fathers said this is the Glorified Jesus.
which gives more life and connection to Verse 12:
12 For now we see by means of a mirror in an enigma, but then face to face:

The True Version Paul wrote.

I'm sick and tired of the mistranslated kjv it has perverted the Truth!

Its not the KJV that is the problem. It is reading your WISHES and what you WILL into scripture that is the problem.

You do it with the Greek and the Hebrew just as easily as English.

The Lord Jesus is the Giver of the Perfect to come. He is also the giver of the "in part". But Paul is talking about both the Lord Jesus and US. When we are Perfect. We will see the Lord face to face. We will know for SURE and not have to rely on faith alone.

Until then, we will not see the full picture. We will only understand partially.



Referring to it as "that which is perfect" is EXACTLY correct. It is both the Lord Jesus and our own perfection. That entire concept/process.

Verses 11-12 expound on what this Perfect and what this "in part" look like.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Paul was writing by divine inspiration. He did not say "When He who is perfect is come...". Rather he said "When that which is complete is come..." That Greek word teleios* (τέλειος) should have been translated as "complete".
*Strong's Concordance
teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Definition: having reached its end, complete, perfect
Usage: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.

And that is why the NIV (which I normally shun) says this: but when completeness comes, what is, in part disappears. Prophecy, tongues, and knowledge were all related to divine revelations, and while the Bible was incomplete, they were all necessary. But when the Bible was completed, they were not needed.

What happened to context? verse 12 (in any translation you care to read) blows that theory out of the water. Face to face.
You have not seen face to face. You have not yet received your complete salvation, you have not put on immortality so that you can know God fully.

You don't need Greek, a lexicon, an English dictionary or a doctrine to understand. If everything was complete now, you wouldn't need to rely so heavily on dogma. That doctrine of cessation of gifts is something that has been set up against the knowlege of God.

You might see more by the teaching of The Holy Spirit if you didn't work so hard to resist him.

 

[Polar]

The Prophets wrote on Scrolls.

Paul wrote personal letters addressing CURRENT EVENTS.

Much of what he wrote was for correction.

Anyway, the more I read in this thread, the more I see the most implausible excuses given for saying the Bible is that which is perfect

People say they believe the entire Bible.

But they don't.

 

[Polar]

That doctrine of cessation of gifts is something that has been set up against the knowlege of God.

You might see more by the teaching of The Holy Spirit if you didn't work so hard to resist him.

Succinct and the entire point of the matter.

 

[Polar]

Again, does praying that persecutions be ended, keep him from being exalted above measure and if so HOW does that work?

Perhaps if you didn't try to explain away what is really being said, you would understand the references to a
spiritual being, DEMON in fact, working through people.

And frankly, a herd of pigs could not contain what is going on right now in the world

He wasn't bent over with a thorn in his side. I had a thorn in my little finer on my right hand that worked it's way out of
the finger. A thorn continually in someone's flesh would cause infection.

Seriously Get real

 

[Polar]

All some folks in this thread are doing, is speaking to themselves...but not in Psalms and spiritual songs

Rather than building up, we have tearing down and no edification. But of course those words are also incorrect and must not be applied to any work of the Spirt of God in a believer

I mean who do we think we are, saying we believe that we are edified by speaking or praying in tongues?

Why! The nerve! do we think we are special? Just like the Apostles, made out of flesh but filled with the Holy Spirit.

Yeah.. In fact Paul said we are no longer sinners, but rather saints. The only letter in which he did not call the recipient saints, was the one addressed to the Galatians. Their problem was that they were trying to continue without the Holy Spirit and were depending on their flesh.

And such are some of you.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

That is merely an assumption and a presumption. Paul was a prophet as much as an apostle, and was fully aware that he was giving forth the Word of God. Indeed he encouraged churches to circulate his letters. And even while Paul was alive Peter designated them as "Scripture".

It still doesn't make sense on any level that "knowing & being fully known" "we shall see face to face" is referring to
a canon of scripture. This is as absurd as Preterism. Trying to place future events far back into the past.
It's our relationship with the living God that Paul is describing.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

So I decided that cessationist are right. The Bible is " that which is perfect" for when gifts will cease. Now we know how to pray and live. I was a pentecostal for most of my life. But I find that if I ask in prayer the one giving tongues is an evil spirit. You've got to be careful. Not every spirit is of God. Try the spirits.

Hi Jonathan,

I see that there are strong opinions on both sides of this topic you brought up. 11 Pages of discussion so far. Everyone's entitled to their opinions, but it's sad to see it devolve into an attack on God's Holy Word on a Christian forum.
I like to refer to a very good documentary on the English Bibles. Since I was saved, I found that there were many people claiming to represent God and communicate His Word who denied that we actually had His Word in our language. IF we did, THEN it was subject to the "impeccable" expertise of these critics and their corrections....or so they taught. They did their best to.try to undermine my faith in Christ, His Word and mislead me to think that they were more fluent in the Bible languages than the translators of my King James Bible.
This documentary covers the reasons they think this and whether or not we have been provided something that we can trust.
I hope it is a blessing to you and any others who are motivated to learn more on the subject.

https://www.kjv1611only.com/video/06docs/New_World_Order_Bible_Versions.mp4

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Its not the KJV that is the problem. It is reading your WISHES and what you WILL into scripture that is the problem.

You do it with the Greek and the Hebrew just as easily as English.

The Lord Jesus is the Giver of the Perfect to come. He is also the giver of the "in part". But Paul is talking about both the Lord Jesus and US. When we are Perfect. We will see the Lord face to face. We will know for SURE and not have to rely on faith alone.

Until then, we will not see the full picture. We will only understand partially.



Referring to it as "that which is perfect" is EXACTLY correct. It is both the Lord Jesus and our own perfection. That entire concept/process.

Verses 11-12 expound on what this Perfect and what this "in part" look like.

I already knew it was about seeing Jesus in His Glorified Person and myself being who I would become. But in discussions like this I prefer to unveil things that agree with me like the Church Fathers and the true Greek.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

so let's look at the 4th Century Greek Text:
10 όταν, όμως, έχει έρθει το τέλειο, αυτό? εν μέρει θα αποτύχει.
10 when, however, the perfect has come, that; in part shall come to naught.
^
when we read it how it was originally written by Paul, now it makes more sense why the Church Fathers said this is the Glorified Jesus.
which gives more life and connection to Verse 12:
12 For now we see by means of a mirror in an enigma, but then face to face:
The True Version Paul wrote.

I'm sick and tired of the mistranslated kjv it has perverted the Truth!

The KJV isn't my favourite translation but I don't think there is a problem with it here.
1 Cor 13 reads the same to me in the KJV as it does in a dozen other English translations. It's referring to the perfection
to come. Our future knowing The Lord face to face- not only through a glass darkly as we do now. One has to labour to
get it to mean anything else.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I think Paul for sure knew the words he was penning were inspired and would be added to the other inspired writings, but it's a moot point anyway, it doesn't make any difference, God inspired the letters and He knew the letters would be used to complete the Holy writ.

Daniel didn't understand all he had written for he studied what he wrote to try and understand it, and I think he also would have presumed the book he wrote would be added to the Books. So I guess in saying that I give Paul more credit than you do, and Paul wasn't dumb he would have understood pretty quickly the perfect/complete was not the return of the Lord.

Im trying not to assume anything, In fact if you give the verse to language students who haven't read a Bible, they would apply the same simple unbiased understanding of the text I have. If it means something else then I'm just saying the simplest understanding (which can happen) is incorrect.

Let's say he did. Then it becomes more important to discover how he actually wrote Verses 10 and 12 of Chapter 13. Fortunately, I have provided that. Clearly the Greek is very clear the Perfect to Come is Christ in His Glory because Verse 12 tells us right now we see Him as an Enigma, something created in our mind, but when we see Him FACE TO FACE, we will see Him as Perfection.

For me it is very clear what Paul is talking about. And it was very clear to the Church Fathers. I wonder at times how do people think they know better than the Church Fathers when the Church Fathers had the true Greek and could read Greek fluently?