A Few of the Scriptures that Make me Post-Millennial

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Ethan1942

Ethan1942

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presidente said:
You aren't making sense. The fact that Billy Graham said some believers believe the rapture is 'secret' means that the idea of 'secret' is not inherent in the word 'rapture', or else the word 'secret' would not need to be used.

'Rapture' refers to the catching up of the saints referred to in I Thessalonians 4. Pre-trib rapture folks will debate the pre-trib versus post-trib rapture. So 'rapture' does not refer specifically to post trib.

Post-mils historically used the word 'rapture' to refer to the catching up in I Thessalonians 4. That is how pre-tribbers use it. If you say you do not believe in the rapture, you are saying you do not believe in the saints being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. You can say you mean something different, but don't expect listeners to understand you, especially if you are talking to pre-tribbers.

It's kind of like calling Muslims 'evangelicals' because they share some of the same voting concerns in the US electorate.



See, 'rapture' used across exchatalogical lines.
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I sat under dispensationalist deceit for years and they do indeed teach a "secret" rapture that leaves the lost scratching their heads at what on earth happenedf? Martians come and abduct those missing people?? All your claims to the contrary, you do NOT find a secret rapture in commentaries before dispensationalism. The dispensationalists use the trick Communists and other tyrants use: slyly give new defintions to words to fool the simple. If you cannot tell the difference between how the Billy Graham organization explained "rapture" as used in the evangelcal world today, largely dispensational; and how the word rapture was used before dispensationalism, there is no help for you. You do not find the rapture connected to the "great tribulation" which commences after their secret rapture. The scriptures themselves refute the idea of it being secret:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" (1Thess 4:16, KJV)
 
Ethan1942

Ethan1942

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Ethan1942 said:
I sat under dispensationalist deceit for years and they do indeed teach a "secret" rapture that leaves the lost scratching their heads at what on earth happenedf? Martians come and abduct those missing people?? All your claims to the contrary, you do NOT find a secret rapture in commentaries before dispensationalism. The dispensationalists use the trick Communists and other tyrants use: slyly give new defintions to words to fool the simple. If you cannot tell the difference between how the Billy Graham organization explained "rapture" as used in the evangelcal world today, largely dispensational; and how the word rapture was used before dispensationalism, there is no help for you. You do not find the rapture connected to the "great tribulation" which commences after their secret rapture. The scriptures themselves refute the idea of it being secret:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" (1Thess 4:16, KJV)
Click to expand...
I should add,the idea of "secret is not inherent in the word "rapture:

1828 Webster's
RAP'TURE, n. [L. raptus, rapio.]
1. A seizing by violence. [Little used.]
2. Transport; ecstasy; violence of a pleasing passion; extreme joy or pleasure.
Music when thus applied, raises in the mind of the hearer great conceptions; it strengthens devotion and advances praise into rapture.
3. Rapidity with violence; a hurrying along with velocity; as rolling with torrent rapture.
4. Enthusiasm; uncommon heat of imagination.
You grow correct, that once with rapture writ.

The American Heritage English Dictionary
1. The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy.2. often raptures An expression of ecstatic feeling: raptures of joy.
3.a. The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven, by supernatural means.
b. Rapture An event in the eschatology of certain Christian groups in which believers in Christ will be taken up to heaven either prior to or at the Second Coming.
 
Ethan1942

Ethan1942

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The_Watchers_2017 said:
you do realize Scofield was considered a charlatan and heretic?

and you are reading his notes like they are Gospel :unsure:


1. His claim to have fought with General Lee is disputed as is his alleged decoration for service in the Confederate army in 1861.7

2. His ‘rank perjury’ in swearing the oath of office to become District Attorney for Kansas in June 1873, denying he had served in the Confederate Army8, a post he then had to resign just six months later following well publicised charges of extortion and blackmail.9

3. The desertion of his first wife Leontine, and daughters Abigail and Marie-Helene from 1877 and failure to provide for them.10

4. The unsubstantiated claim that he was admitted to the Bar of St. Louis and practised law.11

5. The discrepancies surrounding his alleged conversion in 1879 in jail and also while practising law.12

6. The criminal charges of fraud and embezzlement brought against him between 1877-1879, some following his alleged conversion13 resulting in at least one jail sentence.14

7. His persistent refusal, even as a Christian minister, to make restitution to those he had defrauded.15

8. The embarrassment of having divorce proceedings initiated against him by his wife Leontine in 1881 while he was pastor of Hyde Park Congregational Church, St. Louis . Her divorce papers charged Scofield with, ‘…gross neglect of duty…’ having, ‘failed to support this plaintiff or her said children, or to contribute thereto, and has made no provision for them for food, clothing or a home…’ 16 The court decided in favour of Leontine after some delay in 1883 and issued a decree of divorce in December of that year, describing Scofield as, ‘…not a fit person to have custody of the children.’17

9. His nomination as pastor to the First Congregational Church of Dallas in 1882, by James H. Brookes was apparently without reference to or acknowledgement of any Christian obligation to provide for his family.18

10. Discrepancies exist in the accounts of his alleged theological training prior to ordination.19

11. Discrepancies exist in the conflicting length of his courtship and the date of his second marriage to Hettie Van Wark in March 1884, only three months after her arrival in Dallas and his divorce becoming final.20

12. Doubts have been raised as to claims made that Scofield made several visits to London prior to 1903,21and claims that he studied and lectured in Rome, Paris, Geneva and Berlin between 1906-1907.22

13. Scofield apparently conferred a doctorate on himself in 1892.23 The 1897 Northfield Bible Conference, for example, lists Scofield’s name with a D.D. yet there is no evidence of this award being conferred by a university or college. ‘We are not aware of any degree-awarding institution which in the 1890’s would recognize dispensational accomplishments.’24

14. In 1904, addressing a gathering of Confederate veterans in Dallas, Scofield made pejorative and racist remarks concerning blacks and whites.25

15. Major discrepancies exist in his Who’s Who in America 1912 entry both in terms of misstatements, factual inaccuracies and omissions, including the dates of his marriages, the names of his three children, and subsequent divorce.26

16. In 1909 and 1921, despite significant royalties from the Scofield Reference Bible, he wrote to his daughters Helene and Abbie, explaining his inability to help them financially as he was suffering from chronic ‘Scofielditis’, his euphemism for ‘a purse which has grown dismally empty.’27
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Thanks for posting that about Scofield. If I ever knew it in the past I've forgotten it. That is what typically the sort of things that come out about the various heretics appearing in the 19th century.
 
D

Dirtman

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The_Watchers_2017 said:
you do realize Scofield was considered a charlatan and heretic?

and you are reading his notes like they are Gospel :unsure:


1. His claim to have fought with General Lee is disputed as is his alleged decoration for service in the Confederate army in 1861.7

2. His ‘rank perjury’ in swearing the oath of office to become District Attorney for Kansas in June 1873, denying he had served in the Confederate Army8, a post he then had to resign just six months later following well publicised charges of extortion and blackmail.9

3. The desertion of his first wife Leontine, and daughters Abigail and Marie-Helene from 1877 and failure to provide for them.10

4. The unsubstantiated claim that he was admitted to the Bar of St. Louis and practised law.11

5. The discrepancies surrounding his alleged conversion in 1879 in jail and also while practising law.12

6. The criminal charges of fraud and embezzlement brought against him between 1877-1879, some following his alleged conversion13 resulting in at least one jail sentence.14

7. His persistent refusal, even as a Christian minister, to make restitution to those he had defrauded.15

8. The embarrassment of having divorce proceedings initiated against him by his wife Leontine in 1881 while he was pastor of Hyde Park Congregational Church, St. Louis . Her divorce papers charged Scofield with, ‘…gross neglect of duty…’ having, ‘failed to support this plaintiff or her said children, or to contribute thereto, and has made no provision for them for food, clothing or a home…’ 16 The court decided in favour of Leontine after some delay in 1883 and issued a decree of divorce in December of that year, describing Scofield as, ‘…not a fit person to have custody of the children.’17

9. His nomination as pastor to the First Congregational Church of Dallas in 1882, by James H. Brookes was apparently without reference to or acknowledgement of any Christian obligation to provide for his family.18

10. Discrepancies exist in the accounts of his alleged theological training prior to ordination.19

11. Discrepancies exist in the conflicting length of his courtship and the date of his second marriage to Hettie Van Wark in March 1884, only three months after her arrival in Dallas and his divorce becoming final.20

12. Doubts have been raised as to claims made that Scofield made several visits to London prior to 1903,21and claims that he studied and lectured in Rome, Paris, Geneva and Berlin between 1906-1907.22

13. Scofield apparently conferred a doctorate on himself in 1892.23 The 1897 Northfield Bible Conference, for example, lists Scofield’s name with a D.D. yet there is no evidence of this award being conferred by a university or college. ‘We are not aware of any degree-awarding institution which in the 1890’s would recognize dispensational accomplishments.’24

14. In 1904, addressing a gathering of Confederate veterans in Dallas, Scofield made pejorative and racist remarks concerning blacks and whites.25

15. Major discrepancies exist in his Who’s Who in America 1912 entry both in terms of misstatements, factual inaccuracies and omissions, including the dates of his marriages, the names of his three children, and subsequent divorce.26

16. In 1909 and 1921, despite significant royalties from the Scofield Reference Bible, he wrote to his daughters Helene and Abbie, explaining his inability to help them financially as he was suffering from chronic ‘Scofielditis’, his euphemism for ‘a purse which has grown dismally empty.’27
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Scofield and Darby are both rather sketchy.
 
D

Dirtman

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Ethan1942 said:
Thanks for posting that about Scofield. If I ever knew it in the past I've forgotten it. That is what typically the sort of things that come out about the various heretics appearing in the 19th century.
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The late 1800s through the early 1900s is rife with heretical proliferation. I often think about how the so called "enlightenment" infiltrated "christianity", and lead so many a stray
 
D

Dirtman

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Ethan1942 said:
Post-millennialists believe that the millennium happens from the 1st to the 2nd advent, or a latter portion thereof.
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Thats what A-millennials believe. That the millennium lasts from the first advent until His return, or second advent.

Luther described it as two separate kingdoms occuring at the same time. A worldly kingdom and the Kingdom of God, occuring simultaneously. One where Christ allows governments to punish wickedness and the other where Christ extends his mercy and grace and glory to his who are his.
 
P

presidente

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Ethan1942 said:
I sat under dispensationalist deceit for years and they do indeed teach a "secret" rapture that leaves the lost scratching their heads at what on earth happenedf? Martians come and abduct those missing people??
Click to expand...
The word 'rapture' has nothing to do with aliens, or even people scratching their heads after it happens. It means 'catching away', and repeatedly if you watched end-times shows on TBN (which I haven't really done since I sampled them in the 1990's) or Bible prophecy teachers on YouTube from the pre-trib persuasion, they will tell you that.

There is term 'post trib rapture', too. Post tribbers use the word 'rapture' to refer to the catching up referred to in I Thessalonians 4, but obvious believe it happens after the tribulation, so again, the pre-trib scenario is not inherent in the word 'rapture.'

I've also shown you were postmil teachers from history, including one you quoted yourself, used the term 'rapture' to refer to the event in I Thessalonians 4.

All your claims to the contrary, you do NOT find a secret rapture in commentaries before dispensationalism.
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You are arguing against a straw man here. I did not argue for a secret rapture. Look at my posts again. The fact that some commentators put 'secret' before rapture is evidence that 'secret' is not inherent in the word 'rapture.'

If you want to go around using terminology that indicates that you do not believe that I Thessalonians is true when it says that they that are alive and remain are caught up/raptured to meet the Lord in the air, that's up to you. It will come off as ignorant, especially in conversations with pre-tribbers.

The dispensationalists use the trick Communists and other tyrants use: slyly give new defintions to words to fool the simple. If you cannot tell the difference between how the Billy Graham organization explained "rapture" as used in the evangelcal world today, largely dispensational; and how the word rapture was used before dispensationalism, there is no help for you.
Click to expand...
The word 'rapture' means 'catch up' in this context. If you actually use the word rapture to refer to the Biblical event, you will actually communicate with people. The word is not used in a fundamentally different way between these eschatologies. It's the series of events around it that are different. In the dispensationalist lingo, 'rapture' refers to the event in I Thessalonians 4 where the saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. They say 'pre-tribulational rapture' because they believe this happens before the tribulation. After the discussions here, I still don't why anyone would think that, or how any premillinealist would think that is a viable view. But you are reading a whole scenario into the historical word 'rapture' that isn't there.

If 'rapture' means a dispensational pre-trib rapture, then those who believed in post-trib would believe in a rapture that occurs after the tribulation and before the tribulation, but one rapture, which makes no sense.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" (1Thess 4:16, KJV)
Click to expand...
And they that are alive and remain shall be raptured to meet the Lord in the air.
 
Clayman

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presidente said:
The word 'rapture' has nothing to do with aliens, or even people scratching their heads after it happens. It means 'catching away', and repeatedly if you watched end-times shows on TBN (which I haven't really done since I sampled them in the 1990's) or Bible prophecy teachers on YouTube from the pre-trib persuasion, they will tell you that.

There is term 'post trib rapture', too. Post tribbers use the word 'rapture' to refer to the catching up referred to in I Thessalonians 4, but obvious believe it happens after the tribulation, so again, the pre-trib scenario is not inherent in the word 'rapture.'

I've also shown you were postmil teachers from history, including one you quoted yourself, used the term 'rapture' to refer to the event in I Thessalonians 4.



You are arguing against a straw man here. I did not argue for a secret rapture. Look at my posts again. The fact that some commentators put 'secret' before rapture is evidence that 'secret' is not inherent in the word 'rapture.'

If you want to go around using terminology that indicates that you do not believe that I Thessalonians is true when it says that they that are alive and remain are caught up/raptured to meet the Lord in the air, that's up to you. It will come off as ignorant, especially in conversations with pre-tribbers.



The word 'rapture' means 'catch up' in this context. If you actually use the word rapture to refer to the Biblical event, you will actually communicate with people. The word is not used in a fundamentally different way between these eschatologies. It's the series of events around it that are different. In the dispensationalist lingo, 'rapture' refers to the event in I Thessalonians 4 where the saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. They say 'pre-tribulational rapture' because they believe this happens before the tribulation. After the discussions here, I still don't why anyone would think that, or how any premillinealist would think that is a viable view. But you are reading a whole scenario into the historical word 'rapture' that isn't there.

If 'rapture' means a dispensational pre-trib rapture, then those who believed in post-trib would believe in a rapture that occurs after the tribulation and before the tribulation, but one rapture, which makes no sense.



And they that are alive and remain shall be raptured to meet the Lord in the air.
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Exactly, language especially the English language is always evolving or changing and sometimes out of necessity likee with the word rapture, to mean the saints being caught up supernaturally to meet the Lord in the air, one could use the whole sentence every time or they could use one word that describes the event. Which sure saves me time from typing out the whole sentence haha

Also words are allowed to have more than one meaning, as people are created with the ability to comprehend context, which is lucky imagine telling someone to hit the ball with a bat.

And you are correct everytime I hear that someone does not believe in the rapture I hear that he does not believe the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Which may be what they actually mean?
 
PennEd

PennEd

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Not surprised the Amils with their heresy had no answer to these questions.


find the 1000 years of Revelation 20 to be the period from Acts 2:34-35 until 1 Cor 16:24-27, the time between the 1st and 2nd advents. It is to be understood in the same way as the 1000 in Psa. 50:10; 91:7; 105:8; Isa 30:17; 60:22. The symbolism of Revelation is taken mainly from the OT.
Complete and utter private interpretations and "allegory, or symbolism" to fit a false doctrine.
Here is the passage. How you contrived the interpretation you did is beyond me.
The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Ethan1942 said:
Spending the first 30 years of my life in dispensationalism I can tell you that what I quoted in the clear statements is denied by dispensationalists. Dispensationalists are waiting for Jesus to be king on the throne and reigning in some future 1000 year kingdom in Israel and deny that Christ is king and reigns now.
You are so mixed up, and in such error, it will be very difficult to guide you out of it.
Luke 1:30-33

New King James Version

30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”


Did Gabriel lie to Mary?

If not, when did Jesus sit on King David's throne?
 
Ethan1942

Ethan1942

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Clayman said:
Exactly, language especially the English language is always evolving or changing and sometimes out of necessity likee with the word rapture, to mean the saints being caught up supernaturally to meet the Lord in the air, one could use the whole sentence every time or they could use one word that describes the event. Which sure saves me time from typing out the whole sentence haha

Also words are allowed to have more than one meaning, as people are created with the ability to comprehend context, which is lucky imagine telling someone to hit the ball with a bat.

And you are correct everytime I hear that someone does not believe in the rapture I hear that he does not believe the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Which may be what they actually mean?
Click to expand...
In this day when you hear people talk on and on about prophecy and mention "rapture", they invariably use it as dispensationalists have distorted it.
 
Ethan1942

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Dirtman said:
Thats what A-millennials believe. That the millennium lasts from the first advent until His return, or second advent.

Luther described it as two separate kingdoms occuring at the same time. A worldly kingdom and the Kingdom of God, occuring simultaneously. One where Christ allows governments to punish wickedness and the other where Christ extends his mercy and grace and glory to his who are his.
Click to expand...
In many ways, as a post-mil, I'm quite similar to the A-mils as to timeline but with more optimism. You mention Luther, and my most trusted Study Bible is the Lutheran Study Bible by the LCMS. I agree with their prophecy charts and how they correct the false teachings of the dispensationalists. The LCMS Study Bible does have many more valuable features as well.
 
Ethan1942

Ethan1942

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On being truly "literal", reading from the KJV "Translators to the Readers", found in the early KJV Bibles:

"Lastly, wee have on the one side avoided the scrupulositie of the Puritanes, who leave the olde Ecclesticall words, and betake them to other, as when they put washing for Baptisme, and Congregation in stead of Church"

If dispensationalists want to truly be literal, they'd use a literal translation where you'll not find the word "church" anywhere from Genesis to Revelation. The KJV translators chose to use the ecclesiastical word "church" instead they're being literal to the Hebrew and Greek language. You can check in the LITV by Jay P Green, the YLT, LSV and Rotherham's Emphasized Bible and you'll not find the word "church" anywhere. When you stay with literal as in the YLT, you have God's people under the Old Covenant and under the New Covenant described in similar phrases:

Translating by using "assembly", in both OT and NT we find the following passages with the YLT.

Judg 20:2 " the assembly of the people of God,"
1 Chron. 13:2 "David saith to all the assembly of Israel" "the assembly of Israel" is the same as "the assembly of God", over which David is king. Jesus is king over the true Israel of God, the "assembly of God, God's people under the New Covenant.
1 Chron. 28:8 "the assembly of Jehovah"
Neh. 13:1 "the assembly of God"

Acts 20:28 " the assembly of God; 1 Cor. 1:2; 10:32; 11:22; Gal. 1:13, etc.
1 Cor. 1:2 " the assembly of God that is in Corinth" repeated to the each congregation in various cities
1 Tim. 3:15 "the house of God, which is an assembly of the living God"
Rev. 2:18 " the assembly of Thyatira"
Rev. 3:1 " the assembly in Sardis"
Rev. 3:14 "the assembly of the Laodiceans"

God's people are called an "assembly" under the Old Covenant as well as the New Covenant.
The assembly of God, God's people, under the Old Covenant was the single physical nation Israel, yet not all are true Israel Rom. 9:6.
The assembly of God, God's people, under the New Covenant is "out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation", but not all are true Israel.

David as a type of Jesus Christ was king over "the assembly of God", God's people under the Old Covenant was the nation Israel alone. Now Jesus Christ is king over the "assembly of God", God's people from all nations, under the New Covenant, not just the nation of Israel, but the Israel from all nations, being the people of God, the assembly of God.

"for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation; and as many as walk by this rule—peace on them, and kindness, and on the Israel of God!" (Gal 6:15-16, LSV)

The word translated "and" in the phrase "and on the Israel of God" is the Greek kai. According the Strong's Greek Dictionary, kai is defined as:

"Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yea, yet."

In Gal. 6:16 kai/and is used to indicate that the people of God described in v15 are the "Israel of God". The word kai is used in this manner in the following: 1 Cor. 3:5; 8:12; 15:38; John 1:16.

When king David addesses "all the assembly of Israel", he is addressing "the assembly of God", God's people over which he is king.

When king Jesus addresses "the assembly of God" in the New Covenant, he is addressing God's people over which He is the king. The assembly of God under the New Covenant includes all every nation and is referred to as "the Israel of God", as in the following:

"All who take this principle for their guide, peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God!" (Gal 6:16, REB)

David was on the throne of David over God's people Israel, and according to Peter in Acts 2, Jesus is seen as on the throne over God's people who are Israel from all nations.
 
Ethan1942

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PennEd said:
Not surprised the Amils with their heresy had no answer to these questions.


find the 1000 years of Revelation 20 to be the period from Acts 2:34-35 until 1 Cor 16:24-27, the time between the 1st and 2nd advents. It is to be understood in the same way as the 1000 in Psa. 50:10; 91:7; 105:8; Isa 30:17; 60:22. The symbolism of Revelation is taken mainly from the OT.
Complete and utter private interpretations and "allegory, or symbolism" to fit a false doctrine.
Here is the passage. How you contrived the interpretation you did is beyond me.
The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Ethan1942 said:
Spending the first 30 years of my life in dispensationalism I can tell you that what I quoted in the clear statements is denied by dispensationalists. Dispensationalists are waiting for Jesus to be king on the throne and reigning in some future 1000 year kingdom in Israel and deny that Christ is king and reigns now.
You are so mixed up, and in such error, it will be very difficult to guide you out of it.
Luke 1:30-33

New King James Version

30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”


Did Gabriel lie to Mary?

If not, when did Jesus sit on King David's throne?
Click to expand...
I'll stay with the words of the Holy Spirit inspired Apostle Peter rather than the cafeteria style literalism practiced by dispensationalists.

“Fellow Israelites, I may say to you confidently of our ancestor David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Since he was a prophet, he knew that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would put one of his descendants on his throne. Foreseeing this, David spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, saying, ‘He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh experience corruption.’ This Jesus God raised up, and of that all of us are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you both see and hear. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’ (Acts 2:29-35, NRSV)
 
PennEd

PennEd

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#114
Ethan1942 said:
“Fellow Israelites, I may say to you confidently of our ancestor David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Since he was a prophet, he knew that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would put one of his descendants on his throne. Foreseeing this, David spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, saying, ‘He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh experience corruption.’ This Jesus God raised up, and of that all of us are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you both see and hear. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’ (Acts 2:29-35, NRSV)
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Yup. Now WHEN did Jesus sit on David's throne?

And why no answer the very Jewish list of men, 12,000 from each Jewish tribe?

Also, answer why there is a DISTINCTIVE difference between the Jewish Tribes of Israel, and the Apostles representing the Church in the New Jerusalem?

Revelation 21

12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
 
D

Dirtman

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#115
Ethan1942 said:
In many ways, as a post-mil, I'm quite similar to the A-mils as to timeline but with more optimism. You mention Luther, and my most trusted Study Bible is the Lutheran Study Bible by the LCMS. I agree with their prophecy charts and how they correct the false teachings of the dispensationalists. The LCMS Study Bible does have many more valuable features as well.
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I am LCMS. I really like the study bible. I also have Luther's law and gospel.
WELS has come out with another English Bible translation that I am interested in; HEV. WELS, is very conservative so I would like to read their work.
 
Beckie

Beckie

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Feb 15, 2022
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#116
presidente said:
The word 'rapture' has nothing to do with aliens, or even people scratching their heads after it happens. It means 'catching away', and repeatedly if you watched end-times shows on TBN (which I haven't really done since I sampled them in the 1990's) or Bible prophecy teachers on YouTube from the pre-trib persuasion, they will tell you that.

There is term 'post trib rapture', too. Post tribbers use the word 'rapture' to refer to the catching up referred to in I Thessalonians 4, but obvious believe it happens after the tribulation, so again, the pre-trib scenario is not inherent in the word 'rapture.'

I've also shown you were postmil teachers from history, including one you quoted yourself, used the term 'rapture' to refer to the event in I Thessalonians 4.



You are arguing against a straw man here. I did not argue for a secret rapture. Look at my posts again. The fact that some commentators put 'secret' before rapture is evidence that 'secret' is not inherent in the word 'rapture.'

If you want to go around using terminology that indicates that you do not believe that I Thessalonians is true when it says that they that are alive and remain are caught up/raptured to meet the Lord in the air, that's up to you. It will come off as ignorant, especially in conversations with pre-tribbers.



The word 'rapture' means 'catch up' in this context. If you actually use the word rapture to refer to the Biblical event, you will actually communicate with people. The word is not used in a fundamentally different way between these eschatologies. It's the series of events around it that are different. In the dispensationalist lingo, 'rapture' refers to the event in I Thessalonians 4 where the saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. They say 'pre-tribulational rapture' because they believe this happens before the tribulation. After the discussions here, I still don't why anyone would think that, or how any premillinealist would think that is a viable view. But you are reading a whole scenario into the historical word 'rapture' that isn't there.

If 'rapture' means a dispensational pre-trib rapture, then those who believed in post-trib would believe in a rapture that occurs after the tribulation and before the tribulation, but one rapture, which makes no sense.



And they that are alive and remain shall be raptured to meet the Lord in the air.
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Ethen is 80 i am 75, raised in church, I too remember the secret rapture teaching. There was a span of time, maybe a phase, when 'secrete rapture' was being pushed. Secrete from the world, people will just be gone. There was talk of airplanes falling out of the sky because the piolet was raptured , the same idea with cars trains etc. Secrete from the world... looking at that idea now well , that sure wouldn't be secrete. I believe it was emotional phrase use to excite folks mostly to add to the coffers. IF i am understanding you correctly you are saying .. there is now way THAT could be secrete ... sorta like there is no way the raid on Trump was secrete. Some of the silliness being pushed around today like gold dust, or in Redding CA the holy spirit feathers is not that different. Silliness looking to excite folks and fill the coffers .


PS i am not speaking for Ethen.
 
D

Dirtman

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#117
Beckie said:
Ethen is 80 i am 75, raised in church, I too remember the secret rapture teaching. There was a span of time, maybe a phase, when 'secrete rapture' was being pushed. Secrete from the world, people will just be gone. There was talk of airplanes falling out of the sky because the piolet was raptured , the same idea with cars trains etc. Secrete from the world... looking at that idea now well , that sure wouldn't be secrete. I believe it was emotional phrase use to excite folks mostly to add to the coffers. IF i am understanding you correctly you are saying .. there is now way THAT could be secrete ... sorta like there is no way the raid on Trump was secrete. Some of the silliness being pushed around today like gold dust, or in Redding CA the holy spirit feathers is not that different. Silliness looking to excite folks and fill the coffers .


PS i am not speaking for Ethen.
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I have seen bumper stickers that said something to the effect of , in case if rapture this car will be unmanned. Also remember when the movie left behind came out? Wow! that was some garbage.
 
Ethan1942

Ethan1942

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#118
Beckie said:
Ethen is 80 i am 75, raised in church, I too remember the secret rapture teaching. There was a span of time, maybe a phase, when 'secrete rapture' was being pushed. Secrete from the world, people will just be gone. There was talk of airplanes falling out of the sky because the piolet was raptured , the same idea with cars trains etc. Secrete from the world... looking at that idea now well , that sure wouldn't be secrete. I believe it was emotional phrase use to excite folks mostly to add to the coffers. IF i am understanding you correctly you are saying .. there is now way THAT could be secrete ... sorta like there is no way the raid on Trump was secrete. Some of the silliness being pushed around today like gold dust, or in Redding CA the holy spirit feathers is not that different. Silliness looking to excite folks and fill the coffers .


PS i am not speaking for Ethen.
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Beckie, you and I have the same memory of the dispensationalists teachings. Your memory is actually better than mine. I had shoved the heresy of dispensationalism so fully out of my mind, I've had to re-look at some of my old notes.
 
Ethan1942

Ethan1942

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#119
Who spiritualizes, makes symbolic or interprets as a figure of speech in the following passages?

I agree with Dispensationalists that Daniel 9, Matthew 24 & Revelation refer to the same time period.

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." (Dan 9:24, KJV)

The 70 weeks are thought to be 490 years, so from the word to restore to the end of 490 years is in the 1st century. Inserting a gap of 2000 years between the 69th and 70th week is not literal, it is absurd and only done to fit a predetermined futurist viewpoint.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. (Matt 24:34, KJV)

All the afore mentioend signs were to take place within "this" generation, not this race. It reads "this" generation instead of "that" generation referring to a time many generations in the future. Also, Matt. 24:14 was fulfilled in Paul's day as shown in Rom. 1:8 & Col.1:23. In language the disciples would know, it meant the known world of the day. So again, this is in the first century.

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: ... Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. (Rev 1:1, 3, KJV) Timing repeated in 22:6, 10.

Again, certainly in the 1st century, or at least certainly not 2000 years into the future from the date of composition.

Not one of the three, Daniel, Matthew or Revelation can be projected to our future with literal understanding of the plain text.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Rev 20:4, KJV)

Taking the words literally, the 1000 years refers to a time when: "souls of them" are on thrones, not bodies. It is not said that this is upon the earth. The souls of them are identified as martyrs, not all Christians. That puts a problem before those who wish to make the 1000 years literal, applied to all Christians, and on the earth in some future millennium.

"But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you." (Matt 12:28, KJV)

The kingdom of God came in the first century and we live in that kingdom of God, if we are regenerated.

"which God will bring about in his own good time. He is the blessed and only Sovereign, King of kings and Lord of lords;" (1Tim 6:15, REB) Used the REB because it made more clear the present tense used

Jesus Christ was King of Kings in the 1st century.

"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Matt 16:28, KJV)

If he is coming in his kingdom, that came when some then would not die, he has to be the king in the 1st century.

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:28-29, KJV)

One hour in which resurrection of the good and the evil arise from the graves. The hour cannot be stretched to mean 1000 years!

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40, KJV)
"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48, KJV)

Just as with the word "hour", going to a dictionary you can't find "day" stretched to 1000 years. It says "day", not "days".
 
Ethan1942

Ethan1942

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PennEd said:
Yup. Now WHEN did Jesus sit on David's throne?

And why no answer the very Jewish list of men, 12,000 from each Jewish tribe?

Also, answer why there is a DISTINCTIVE difference between the Jewish Tribes of Israel, and the Apostles representing the Church in the New Jerusalem?

Revelation 21

12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
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I take this as speaking of glory, heaven, the eternal home of God's people from both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. So, you have the Old Covenant children of God represented by the tribes of Israel, and the New Covenant children represented by the apostles. Since "church" is not truly a biblical word, so that does not apply.
 
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