And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

No rest day or night for one day and night? It doesn’t have the world eternal in the there so that isn’t an eternal torment verse. Any others?

How many times have we heard 'those who are not saved' will suffer ETERNAL TORMENT in the lake of fire? Would you believe that is NOT WRITTEN anywhere? I remember the first time I found out, I WAS angry, upset, incensed. Even people who know NOTHING else, seem to all know that. I was about to learn yet ANOTHER lesson...that 'meat' is so hard to chew sometimes especially when all you know is milk.


Rev 20:10 tells us

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Hopefully all can agree what we read here is

The Devil has been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

the lake of fire and brimstone is where the false prophet and the beast were cast.

AND THE DEVIL shall be tormented forever,


Do we know anything else from what is written here? I don't, do you?


When we began to learn the words of God we learned,

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

the wicked PERISH, by being consumed, turned into smoke, ascend up and away

No mention of eternal suffering in the lake of fire.

SO WHERE did it come from?

It didn't come from here
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

IN the presence of the Lamb and the holy angels, WOULD REQUIRE THEY BE WATCHED FOREVER, if indeed they were to NOT BE CONSUMED but again

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


WE know from the PSALM that the wicked perish BY BEING consumed into smoke. Here AGAIN, we are told THE SMOKE of their torment goes up for ever and ever.

Is there ANY CONSCIOUSNESS IN SMOKE? No.


Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


So we see SPECIFICALLY who 'for ever and ever, day and night' is referring to. If we go past this and APPLY it to souls, IS THAT GODS TRUTH or our own?

I believe it would be our own because when you combine that information with

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.



Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


I can't find a single verse that states souls themselves will be tormented, just the smoke left from the consuming of them, which ascends up forever.

Have I missed any important SCRIPTURES, anything WRITTEN that changes any of this THAT isn't just conjecture or assumption?

so let me get this straight. smoke goes up forever, but its just one day and night of no rest. wow.

in order for there to be smoke rising from their torment, there has to be torment of some sort happening.

i would expect you guys to go the route of "it says in the presence of angels" even though the bible says elsewhere the punishment is away from God in thessalonians"

do not let this become an obsession dear friend. Trust the Lord that He will be just. The wicked will go to hell. Who those wicked are I don't know, I do know that some people are desperately wicked. They sate themselves with evil.

If they are offended or afraid of eternal punishment let them repent.

YOU preach the GOOD NEWS of God's salvation. That is the only commission we have been given.

I am not a hell fire preacher but I will warn people.

Greater condemnation or damnation means stricter judgment and less leniency.

WHAT, is the "stricter judgement" if they are annihilated in the LOF?

do not let this become an obsession dear friend. Trust the Lord that He will be just. The wicked will go to hell. Who those wicked are I don't know, I do know that some people are desperately wicked. They sate themselves with evil.

If they are offended or afraid of eternal punishment let them repent.

YOU preach the GOOD NEWS of God's salvation. That is the only commission we have been given.

I am not a hell fire preacher but I will warn people.

Yes. Did you know death is an everlasting punishment?

Revelation 20:8
8But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.”

This is the opposite of everlasting life.

Could you explain me, why evangelists and preachers are always the ones who tell others 'dear friend, your calling is wrong', you need to do the work of an evangelists and/or preacher instead?

What you never see are those called to be apostles and prophets and teachers calling out evangelists and preachers to STOP what they have been called to do and start studying the deeper truths and become teachers, prophets and apostles so they would know how wrong it was to tell others 'their' calling is wrong.

Why do you think that is?

I have not been called in the same manner as you have. I have not been given the gifts that you have. Maybe instead of putting me down, making me feel less, and judging another mans servant, you should warn yourself. I am offended when You tell me to 'not become obsessed' and adding 'dear friend' like that makes the insult ok, is not ok.

So, let me warn you, by putting you in remembrance of these passages, in hopes of better communication,

Romans 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

Romans 12:7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

Romans 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

Romans 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

Romans 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;



Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

SO, no worries on me becoming obsessed with what God will do with the wicked because I am already obsessed with what people are doing with His words and how they 'teach' by conclusion and assumption and doctrine while lacking in knowledge, when it should be by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.


THIS is a classic example. To teach that GODs Justice is that if you don't love Him you will be forever tormented in the lake of fire IS just wrong. If it isn't brought up, then it just keeps getting taught.

Separation from God is everlasting torment. BUT THAT IS NOT enough pain and suffering for some. NO they need consciousness of that pain for it to be eternal. That is viciousness on a scale that makes me grateful that vengeance is HIS because I know He is JUST.

I hope you understand the reality of where this is coming from. Let's not judge each others callings, ok

Matthew 11:21,22
21Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

Depends if they repent or not which Sodom and Gomorrah did not and Jesus’s point is it’s time to repent of sins and throw themselves on the mercy of God with a sincere heart. The ultimate punishment is death. Know how hard that is for eternal beings such as ourselves? That’s the ultimate punishment.

You’re on the right track, but the “smoke rising forever” is known as apocalyptic language. It was recycled from Isaiah.

Isaiah 34:9,10
9Edom’s streams will be turned to tar,
and her soil to sulfur;
her land will become a blazing pitch.
10It will not be quenched—day or night. Its smoke will ascend forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever again pass through it.

Is Edom, a literal physical place on Earth, still burning and has smoke that is ascending literally forever?

Greater condemnation or damnation means stricter judgment and less leniency.

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed on account of 10 righteous people not being found within the city.

Genesis 18
32Finally, Abraham said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak once more. Suppose ten are found there?”

And He answered, “On account of the ten, I will not destroy it.”

That means the city will be judged more strictly if they receive less tolerance than Sodom and Gomorrah.

Now what does this have to do with eternal torment? You never explained that for us.

The second death is. Perpetually punished and barred from the Father's presence for eternity, they will suffer greatly.

NONE of this answers what is meant by "harsher" or "stricter", or "more tolerable".

Those people in the cities that rejected Jesus, while He was in them, will receive a less tolerable judgement than the people in Sodom and Gomorrah.

That is precisely, exactly what Jesus says.

So if they are all annihilated, how can one be worse than the other?

That is correct, since the vast majority of Christendom has long been seated or established in Roman Catholicism. Hopefully it is no longer a knee-jerk reaction to assume "Catholic" when one says "Christian," as that used to be the case. I suppose it is possible you do not believe RCC dogmas and doctrines to be erroneous in any way (and I am certainly not suggesting that you don't, simply commenting that I do not know your stance on this issue), but it is a fact that Protestantism arose in response to numerous RCC errors and abuses. That is not to say they were all addressed in Luther's theses, though.

God is the author and giver of life. He is eternally self existent. He alone is immortal. Scripture plainly states this, and yet people will claim that man is born immortal in direct contradiction to what Scripture plainly states. All life exists in, by, for, and within Him. Those outside of Him at the end of this age following the resurrection and judgment of all do not maintain life. They pass into the second death. A multitude of Scriptures attest to the fact that the unrighteous perish, since death is the wages of sin. The word used (such as in John 3:16), Strongs #622, is appolumi, which means: to destroy, destroy utterly. Some say things like, utterly destroy does not mean utterly destroy, and dead means alive forevermore. It boggles the mind what some people say in relation to this issue in order to defend their belief.

Apollumi: Strongs Concordance # 622

"recycled" from Isaiah. - That's quite a disparaging way of putting it. Prophecy builds on prophecy, it isn't recycled.

Edom is a literal place on Earth and it will burn. You might live to see the oil fields of the Middle East burning.
The pitch can burn until it burns out. Your misunderstanding is that you think a spirit can burn out of existence.

when your talking about eternal judgement your talking about this day when Christ gathers all people before him

one group receives the promised kingdom

“Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:34‬ ‭KJV‬‬


the other group receives this

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41, 46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That same day is pictured here

“in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And we’re warned of this judgement here

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-27, 29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and here clearly again the same warning

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Tribulation and anguish , Notice this is written to the CHurch by Paul and includes every man no matter jew or gentile male or female we all have two options of what comes next glory honor and peace or tribulation wrath and anguish

same principle here

“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:

the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

same principle here

“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:9-11‬ ‭

torment , no rest ever day or night , anguish and tribulation upon thier souls ect it’s consistent and really clear it’s just a matter of whether we can acknolwedge it

there is another world after this one good and evil is what leads people to thier final destination those who serve satans Will on earth are going to inherit his eternal home those who turn to God and accept the gospel are going to inherit his eternal home

The only real question is do these folks eventually die in this tormenting flame ? Or do they just exist forever in that state ?

that part is up for interpretation me there’s always going to be those who see it both ways

WHAT, is the "stricter judgement" if they are annihilated in the LOF?

Depart into everlasting fire, not forever and ever you will be on fire. THE FIRE IS EVERLASTING, the 'departing and the departed are not' but like you said we all see what we want to see.


For souls to never be consumed they would have to have and equal, and for lack of a better word, 'strength' to GOD wouldn't they?