Do you believe in (OSAS) Once Saved, Always Saved?

FreeGrace2 said:
That one never believed. Judas did not lose salvation. He never had it. Proven by John 6:70,71.
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Webers.Home said:
Judas wasn't a sheep. He was a "son of destruction" viz: Judas was assigned
to Jesus for a very different purpose than the other eleven guys.
"likely" doesn't do it. The verses are clear that he never believed. He was never saved.

btw, there is only ONE true interpretation of any text of Scripture. And I will RIGIDLY adhere to what the verse says.

He was "lost" in the sense of the fact that he was a disciple. That's all.

My "bias" is what Jesus taught very clearly in John 10:28. Those given eternal life shall never perish.

And in John 5:24 taught that those who believe POSSESS eternal life.

So, eternal security is promised from the MOMENT one believes.

Chester said:
What if the cyclist has a brain injury and can't then remember how to ride the bike? Can he still ride the bike?
Chester asked a great question. But you punted. People who have had brain injuries have to LEARN to walk again, among a lot of other things. Including speech therapy, etc.

It is not a good idea to make a comment about that which you have zero knowledge.

.

Judas' spiritual status may not matter to you; but certainly mattered to the
shepherd of the sheep, and mattered to the source of the shepherd's sheep.

• 1Tim 2:3-4 . . God our savior, who desires all men to be saved and to
come to the knowledge of the truth.

What might it actually mean when Jesus' loses a disciple? Well; it can only
mean that he would've liked to take Judas into the sheepfold, but he didn't
consent. So, rather than losing one of his sheep, Jesus lost a potential
sheep; for example:

• John 6:66 . . From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked
no more with him.

Instead of walking away with his feet like those other disciples: Judas
walked away with his heart; thus burning the bridge behind him.

• Heb 6:4-6 . . For it is impossible for those who have once been
enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy
Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of
the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because
to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God afresh and subjecting him to
public disgrace.

We know that with God nothing is impossible. So, I think we have to
acquiesce that the impossibility spoken of here is so because God has made
it His mission in life, so to speak, to assure that folks blessed with the level
of advantages spoken of above are never to be given an opportunity to
reconsider-- ever.
_

No.

When you come to a scripture and interpret it in a way that CONTRADICTS the Lord Jesus own words then it is your understanding that is lacking.

If you continue in a doctrine that agrees with the CONTRADICTION of the Lord Jesus people will most likely point it out.

Confessing Jesus Christ as Lord.


When a person confesses Jesus Christ as Lord, then they are to obey Him as Lord, which is what the command of the Gospel is all about.


Repent is the call of God to “turn to God” in submission to Jesus Christ as Lord, which by default is the call to turn away from Satan as your Lord.

• in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God

But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:16-20




JLB

No one can love God or his neighbor the way God has called us to love with out Him dwelling within us, shedding abroad His love within us.


This begins with “turning to God”, by obeying the Gospel command to repent.


This is a twofold command to turn away from Satan as lord, by confessing Jesus Christ as our Lord.


Ths is what the Lord commissioned Paul to do.

• to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God,

So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:15-20




JLB

What did Paul mean in Hebrews, when he wrote, "For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves* and holding him up to contempt."?

And what did Paul mean in Phillipians when he wrote, “Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his purpose.” ?

And what did Matthew mean in Cha 24 when he wrote, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."?

Just wondering??????????????

.

You're taking a mighty big risk seeking that kind of information
because the more you've been told, the more you'll be held accountable.

• Luke 12:47-48 . .That servant who knows his master's will and does not
get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many
blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving
punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been
given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been
entrusted with much, much more will be required.

• Heb 10:26-27 . . If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received
the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful
expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of
God.
_

Hi Free Grace. Yes, I do believe that. It's clear also that you believe, even if a believer ceases to believe in Jesus, they still go to Heaven.

Ok, let's consider the verses one by one. I'll just take the 2 from Hebrews 10 for now.

1. Heb 10:39: "39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul."

Here, the verse very clearly says that those who draw back (apostatize from the Lord) do so UNTO PERDITION, i.e. the loss of their soul. This is then contrasted with that enduring or persevering saving faith that results in the "saving of the soul".

2. Heb 10:29: 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Here again, the verse is very clear. Some Calvinists will say, such a person was never sanctified in the first place. But the verse clearly says, the Blood of the Covenant sanctified him. Now, the context reveals the worst temporal punishment of death took place under the law of Moses (see verse 28). The Author of Hebrews clearly says, the person who apostatized from the Blood of Christ deserves a worse punishment? What can be worse than the temporal punishment of death itself? Clearly, it can only be the ETERNAL PUNISHMENT of the second death, the burning in the lake of fire (Rev 20:14). All that argues against OSAS.

God Bless.

The command of the Gospel is to trust in Him and His work on the cross alone for your salvation. Your obedience has nothing to do with getting or even staying saved. Zero. It is all about who He is and what He did for us.

This is commanded of believers. Never to unbelievers as a way to get saved.

Here, "repenting and turning to God" refers specifically to having your full trust in Him alone for salvation.

Those who keep including lifestyle in it are muddying the waters and changing the grace gospel into a works salvation system.

There is NOTHING we can do to "help God" or however one wants to think of it. Jesus did everything needed to save us.

All we can do is TRUST Him for it. That is not works or lifestyle by any stretch.

Free Grace said:
It seems you believe that if a believer ceases to believe, they lose salvation? Where is that taught? It is not.
I believe that context is king.

34 You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.
35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.
36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.
37 For, “In just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.”
38 And, “But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back.”
39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

v.34 shows reward for suffering
v.35 again shows reward for confidence (saving and lifestyle faith)
v.36 This "promise", just like the promised land, is about REWARD for obedience/faithfulness, NOT NOT NOT salvation.
v.37 the promise of the Second Advent
v.38 teaches that God is NOT pleased with His children who shrink back.
v.39 teaches that His children (saved people who lose faith) will be "destroyed". Not end up in the LoF, but die through divine discipline, which is also taught in 1 Cor 5:5 (incestuous man), 10 (Exodus generation) and 11:30 (abuse of the Lord's table). And many other passages.

This is nothing here that speaks of losing salvation.

Consider this: IF salvation can be lost, for any reason, then what Jesus said in John 10:28 cannot be true. I would NEVER even try to refute what He taught.

Because He taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. That is crystal clear.

And in John 5:24 Jesus taught that those who believe POSSESS eternal life. That means from the MOMENT of faith in Christ they POSSESS eternal life. So, combine this verse with 10:28 and the obvious conclusion is eternal security.

What isn't even stated and isn't clear is that this verse is about losing salvation. By "worse punishment" is meant God's divine discipline, which IS painful (Heb 12:11). God surely knows how to punish His children for their disobedience.

Yes, they are quite in error.

No, the "trampling" refers to a worse sin than the usual sins. And that punishment will be worse.

iow, children shouldn't get the same level of discipline for obviously different levels of disobedience. iow, the punish should fit the crime.

Actually, it does NOT argue against OSAS, since both John 5:24 and 10:28 prove OSAS.

But, to address your comments, you are supposing or presuming what "worse than" SHOULD mean. Not what it does mean. Since Jesus nailed the idea of eternal security in the 2 verses I've shared here, NO VERSE teaches that salvation can be lost.

Once you do understand John 5:24 and 10:28, and BELIEVE what Jesus said, then you will be able to properly understand the verses that you think or presume to teach against eternal security. The Bible is NOT in conflict with itself.

.
• Heb 10:38-39 . . Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back,
my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw
back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The Greek word translated "draw back" is somewhat ambiguous but can
easily refer to sales residence; commonly called a closed mind. Those folks,
instead of warming up to the gospel of Christ, instead pooh-pooh it and go
away in disgust.

• Heb 10:29 . . Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be
thought worthy, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath
counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy
thing

The masculine pronoun in "wherewith he was sanctified" refers to the Son of
God.

High priests cannot enter the most holy place in the Temple during Yom
Kippur without they first slay an animal and bring its blood with them to
sanitize first themselves, and secondly the people. (Heb 9:7)

Also; when a man's blood spoken of as unholy, it is being regarded as
something less than special to God.

NOTE: One of the hardest epistles for Gentiles to figure out in the New
Testament is the letter to Hebrews; primarily because it wasn't written to
them. The target audience is the author's fellow Jews; especially those
trained in Moses' law. Gentiles tend to have the rather bad habit of
Christianizing the letter to Hebrews and thus clouding its intent.
_

Please show us the scripture that says the command of the Gospel is to trust Him and His work on the cross alone?





The command of the Gospel is repent.

Repent means to “turn to God”, which means turn away from Satan as lord.


The way we obey the command of the Gospel to repent, is to confess Jesus Christ as Lord; the Lord we obey.


Your Lord or Master is the one you obey.


But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?
Luke 6:46

• Only those who obey Him will receive eternal salvation.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

• the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him

Those Christians who choose to live in disobedience to him and return to a life of sin, are hypocrites and liars, who have followed the enticing allurements of the world.

• Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4



Those who teach God’s people the false doctrine of OSAS, are deceivers and liars who have been taken captive by the devil to do His will, and will have their part in the lake of fire along with the devil and his angels.

• all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone

He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8






JPT

FreeGrace2 said:
The c
Ah, yes. The old classic "prove your claim with a verse that says exactly what you claim" trick.

We know the "gospel" means "good news" in the Greek and refers to the FACT that trusting in Jesus saves us from that "second death" thing in Revelation. You know, the lake of fire.

A jailer asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved (Acts 16:30). Paul answered that question in v.31 - believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

The gospel is that simple. No works involved. Just full trust in Christ alone.

OK, now my turn. Prove that any kind of works are required for salvation/eternal life. And I'm not going to demand any specific wording, like you did, but simply show a verse that is VERY CLEAR about how to be saved.

This is incorrect. The Greek word metanoeo means to change the mind. And in order to be saved, a person must change their mind about a number of things. They MUST:
1. believe that God exists. Rom 1:19-20
2. know that they are sinners and headed for the lake of fire. Rev 20:15
3. know that they can't save themselves. Eph 2:8,9
4. know that Jesus Christ died for them (1 Cor 15:3) and saves those who believe in Him (John 3:16)

To "turn to God" involves lifestyle. Eph 2;8,9 refutes the notion that lifestyle is involved.

Acts 16:31 tells us how to be saved.

I agree. But this is a command for BELIEVERS, who are already saved.

Hey, noticed you didn't answer.

I mean we all know why, but on the off chance you didn't see, I'll post it again:


"Ya STILL didn't answer the question.

Did the Apostles, sent out by Jesus, preach that Jesus is the atoning death for their sins, and that He would rise from the dead 3 days later?

Yes or no.

Show me a Scripture where ANY of them did this prior to Jesus's death and resurrection and I PROMISE to concede every point you have made.

If not, concede to me."

Not sure why you quoted me on this

Do you ever wonder what grace means?

Here is whom the Bible says will receive eternal salvation --


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

again


God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath. Romans 2:6-8



As I have shown and proven from scripture, the biblical word “believe” means commit, trust and obey. Believe and obey are used interchangeably in scripture.


Example:


He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB


unbelief = disobedience


Example:


Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience. Hebrews 4:6 NKJV


Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV



He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8




Only those who obey Jesus Christ as Lord, will receive eternal salvation.


Those who teach otherwise are liars.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4






JLB

Here is what Peter preached on the day of Pentecost —


Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. Acts 2:38-40


Where do we find the word “atoned for sin” in Peter’s message?


There is no doubt that at some point those who were saved, were taught from the scriptures about Jesus being the blood sacrifice for sins, as Paul taught the Gentiles who had repented.


For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures. 1 Corinthians 15:3-4


The Gospel is preached to the unsaved.

Those who are saved are taught from the scriptures.



Jesus death doesn’t “atone” for our sins.

The blood of animals in the Old Testament atoned for sin.

atone means “cover”; like pitch on a roof covers the roof.

The blood of Jesus “takes away” (removes, washes away) our sin.

But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Hebrews 10:3-4


Here is what Paul was sent to preach —


But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:16-20



Where is the phrase “atoned for sin” in Jesus’ commission to Paul, or is Paul’s response?



Only those who repent and obey the Gospel and continue to obey Jesus Christ, will receive eternal salvation.




He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 9






JLB

So then, it seems you are either ignoring or outright rejecting what Jesus Himself said about never perishing.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 10:28 - I give them (believers) eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Suit yourself.

Quoting this verse as evidence of HOW to be saved demonstrates your unfamiliarity with Romans.

These 3 verses teach that ONLY by keeping the whole law (being perfect) will one earn eternal life. Which means NO ONE will earn it.

Then Paul said this in Romans 3-
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

These verses prove that Rom 2:6-8 are NOT relevant to us human beings.