Do you believe in (OSAS) Once Saved, Always Saved?

Yes, it's comparable to swearing the oath of office with one hand on the bible or the wedding vow at the alter. It's a rite of passage. John baptized with water, Jesus baptized with fire and the Holy Spirit.

John the Baptist got everyone in Judea. Hard to create an argument that there were people who were not water baptized.

Mark 1:4,5
4John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 5And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

If that isn’t clear, if it were possible, Jesus and His disciples still baptized and created more disciples than John in Judea.

John 4:1,2
1When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Lol. That's a laugh and a half. Constantine was never a Bishop, ergo he was never Pope. He was Emperor.

The first three Popes, or Bishops of Rome, after St. Peter, were St. Linus, St. Anacletus and St. Clement. Even secular historians know this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes#1st_century

You can consult any Secular Encyclopedia, including the Encyclopedia Brittanica, to learn the above. In this Internet Age, Wikipedia is your friend. Scholars, even those Protestant scholars who are not completely Anti-Catholic, have known these facts for centuries.

The succession list of bishops in the apostolic see of Rome of the first two centuries as provided by Philip Schaff (volume 2, page 166, History of the Christian Church) is --

• St. Peter (d. 64 or 67)
• St. Linus (67-76)
• St. Anacletus (76-88)
• St. Clement I (88-97)

Philip Schaff was a renowned Protestant Historian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Schaff Agree or disagree, these are the facts.

There are Church Historians of the 2nd century, long before Constantine, who mention these historical points as well known events.

The site you linked to is Anti-Trinitarian. No wonder it is against the Catholic Church, which has always taught the Holy Trinity, and against Constantine, who was a believer in the Divinity of Christ. Constantine, btw, didn't cause the Bishops to decide anything. All he did was end the persecution, and help the Bishops gather at the Council of Nicaea. The Bishops, many of whom had suffered persecution for the Faith, drew up the Nicene Creed, in the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D., to defend the Divinity of Christ, against Arius who denied it. Those who followed Arius in denying Christ's Divinity were called Arians and founded the Arian denomination.

Regarding the Trinity, it is taught by Christ Himself in Mat 28:19: "Go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

St. Augustine commented: "O Lord God, we firmly believe that You are a Trinity. For Truth (Jesus) would never have said "Be Baptized in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" unless You were a Trinity. He said Name and not names, for the Three Persons are One God. Neither would He have commanded us to be baptized into One Who was not Lord God, so each Person is the Lord God". These theological arguments were completely irrefutable, and the Arians couldn't answer them. Trinitarian Theology prevailed.

We already had these debates earlier in Church History, and we won them. Arianism practically disappeared for a 1000 years. Even Luther and Calvin were against it, though they mention some already began to deny Christ's Divinity. Finally, the JW group revived it.

I'll get back to the rest later. God Bless.

FreeGrace2 said:
I'm interested in what the Bible says, not various religions.

I don't see anything profitable here.

My approach is to share the Bible. Without considering their theology. If their theology aligns with the Bible, they should be able to follow. If their theology is different from the Bible's they STILL have an intellect with which to grasp and process information.

I don't know why all this emphasis on the RCC.
I know what the Bible says, and stick with it. That reveals the errors of unbiblical doctrines/etc.

Oh, but I do know what I'm talking about, so I don't need to know what the RCC stand is. Although I am rather familiar with them.

What is "work based salvation?"

Every false religion. Cutting carbon emission to save the planet is one, ceasing all social activities to starve out the China virus is another.

The Bible on religion and works pleasing to the Father:

"Jam 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

Anyway, back on the topic of OSAS, here's an interesting study of the question. It covers same of the same verses we discussed.

https://thevalleychurchofchrist.com...7/10/01/18-what-about-once-saved-always-saved

"18. What About "Once Saved, Always Saved"?
Brent Phillips
10/01/17 - Advanced Bible Studies

What About "Once Saved, Always Saved"?
There is a very simple problem with the dogma of “once saved, always saved.” That problem is that it is just not biblical! The truth is, the dogma of “once saved, always saved” is part of the doctrines and commandments of men. Consider Matthew 15:1-20; Mark 7:1-23 → Galatians 1:6-20 and II John 1:7-11!

The following passages clearly and simply refute the dogma of “once saved, always saved”:

John 15:1-6 – Notice that Jesus makes it very clear: IF you abide in him you are saved. IF you do not abide (i.e., continue to remain) in him you are lost. The most important thing to note is that our salvation is conditional not unconditional. (Consider just some of the conditional statements of Scripture from the Gospel and Epistles of John and the Book of Revelation: John 6:51; 7:17,38; 8:31,36,39,42,51,52; 10:9; 11:40; 12:26,47; 13:17,35; 14:15,23; 15:6,7,10,14 … I John 1:6-10; 2:1,3,15,19,24,29; Revelation 2:5,10,16; 3:3,5,20; 22:18,19; etc.)

Romans 8:12-13; 11:19-22 – Again notice that Paul says that IF we (believers) live according to the flesh we will die but IF we (believers) live according to the Spirit we will live. We believers thus have a choice to make – even we who are already saved! Our salvation is thus conditionally based by and on God’s terms. And so it is possible that a Christian can be “cut off” and thus lost. (Notice the conditional statements in Romans 8:9,10,11,13,17; 11:17,18,21,22,23,24; etc.)

II Peter 1:2-11 – And notice that Peter clearly tells us that our salvation is conditional and that “IF we do these things we will never stumble, and a glorious entrance will be given to us into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” What if we don’t do the things Peter mentions? Then we are eternally lost! It is that simple. We should realize by now that Scripture everywhere is filled with the very conditions of salvation and damnation often denoted by that little word, “IF”! Everyone seems to ignore this little word.

Galatians 5:1-6 – The Apostle Paul clearly states that Christ has set us free. He has saved us! And yet he goes on to say to believers that if they follow another gospel (Galatians 1:6-10 cf. II John 1:7-11) they are “cut off from Christ” and “they have fallen from grace.” See Galatians 5:4. You cannot fall from somewhere you have never been! In other words the argument that “Anyone who is lost was never saved in the first place” or “Anyone who is lost was never really a believer” is nonsense. While that may be true of some it is not true of all. Christians can fall from grace! Paul said so. A saved believer can fall from grace. And it is a lying heresy to say that they can’t.

II Peter 2:18-22 – The Apostle Peter clearly tells us that the believer can fall from grace and be lost! Peter is talking about those who “escaped the world through the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ” who then become “entangled” and “overcome” by sin and the flesh. And then he specifically says of them, “their latter end is worse than the beginning and it would have been better if they had never known the way of righteousness than to have turned from the way of truth.” See II Peter 2:20-22. There is no way to explain any of this away by saying, “Well, they were never really Christians to begin with.” Peter says they were believers and now they are worse off than if they had never believed. It would have been better if they had never become Christians!

Hebrews 6:4-8; 10:26-39 – The inspired writer of Hebrews also gives us clear and simple statements of the possibility of apostasy and of losing our very salvation. If one loses one’s salvation it is not God’s fault it is their own fault and they have no one to blame but themselves for their sin. The writer talks about those who were once “enlightened” who have “tasted of heaven” and who have “become partakers of the Holy Spirit” and who have “tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the age to come” – if these aren’t true believing Christians who is? – and IF they “fall away” they are only good for being “cursed” and “burned” in hell. Later the writer of Hebrews goes even further when he says that we can “sin willfully” (the background for “willful sin” is found in Numbers 15:30-31,32-36) and if we do we will never be saved, only the wrath of God and hell awaits us. Notice all the ways that the writer says we can and will be lost if we turn against the Lord. That is why the writer of Hebrews says this: “Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation?” (Hebrews 2:1-2)"

ResidentAlien said:
What is "work based salvation?"
To be more clear, it is adding ANY kind of action or work to faith in Christ. Whether baptism by water, circumcision, or works/effort.

Okay, if I understand then, once I'm "saved" I can do anything: renounce Christ, completely abandon the faith, murder, rob, rape; and none of it will effect my "salvation."

Why would it?

The real question here is: do you really believe what Jesus said in John 10:28 or not? Here it is again:

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

It is real clear. Recipients of eternal life (I give them eternal life) shall never perish.

Jesus gives eternal life and the result is never perishing.

I absolutely believe that. Unfortunately, there are many who claim Christ as Savior but don't actually believe what He said.

Article Continued:

"
The following passages are frequently used to prove the dogma of “once saved, always saved” but upon a more careful study they actually are found to refute the heretical idea of “once saved, always saved”:

John 10:26-29 – This is one of the favorite passages for those who would attempt to prove the false doctrine of “once saved, always saved.” Tragically many neither see nor understand what the passage actually says. Our Lord says, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.” Now here is what most fail to notice: The very promise of eternal security is not unconditional but conditional! Those who are given the promise of eternal life are those who “hear and follow” Jesus. Both of these terms are in the present tense and indicate continuing action! This passage does not say that all you have to do is to have “heard and followed” Jesus once when you “got saved” and then God will forever save you. What is more, the term for “hear” means, “to listen, to hearken … to obey”! This is what discipleship is all about – “the obedience of faith.” In order to be given the promise of eternal assurance we must continue on in the hearing and obedience of faith. There is no “once saved, always saved” in this Word of the Lord. Such a dogma as “once saved, always saved” is not taught in Scripture and it is especially not taught in this passage. If you quit “listening to” God; if you quit “obeying” the Lord; if you quit faithfully “following the Lord” … then you will not, you cannot be saved.

Jude 1:24-25 – This is another favorite passage for those who want to believe the dogma of “once saved, always saved.” Here is the problem with all heresy: Any Scripture can be taken out of context and made to teach anything. (The Devil does this! Just consider what he did in the beginning in Genesis 3:1-5 and in the temptation of Jesus in Matthew 4:6; Luke 4:9-10.) First let it be clearly stated that God is “able to save us completely” and he is “able to save us forever”! Consider Hebrews 7:25. The fact is He has given us the blessed assurance of salvation. See I John 5:11-13 – “And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” The Apostle John tells us very clearly that the way we have eternal life is to “walk in the light” in the obedience of faith. See I John 1:5-2:6! Now go back to the context of Jude 1:24-25 and realize that Jude is telling us the very same thing. Jude tells us that we must be, “building ourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep(ing) ourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.” See Jude 1:20-21! Here is the bottom line in all of this. God will save us only IF we continue on in faithfulness. But if we ever stop believing and quit being faithful we will be lost. Scripture is just too clear on this simple fact, no matter what the doctrines and dogmas of men may teach.

Perhaps one of the most powerful proofs that a child of God can be eternally lost is seen over and over again across the pages of the Old Testament. All we have to do is consider what the New Testament writers said about the problem of Israel’s continuous apostasy. See I Corinthians 10:13 and Hebrews 3:7-4:7. In fact, the Apostle Paul (and the writer of Hebrews) says that as Israel fell so can we: “Take heed if you think you stand lest you fall!” (I Corinthians 10:12) If the people of God can’t fall from grace and salvation, then all of these warnings mean absolutely nothing. One more thing. Paul realized that if he did not “run the race” in the way that God wants he could be “disqualified” – in other words, he would “lose it”! See I Corinthians 9:24-27."

John 5:24

Whoever wrote the following passage simply and clearly doesn't believe what Jesus said.

The bolded statements in this article are patently FALSE. This person is trying to turn v.27 into a condition for receiving eternal life. And that is false because there are NO WORDS in v.27 that comprise a condition to be met.

Instead, v.27 is a description of what His sheep already DO, or a policy statement about what His sheep OUGHT TO DO.

So, instead of "proving" that OSAS is a heresy, this writer simply demonstrates his own ignorance of how words work.

If you want to express a condition, you use words that show the condition. Including the word "if" to show a choice to meet.

And v.27 says nothing about how to be one of His sheep. That is explained way back in John 5:24, which the author failed to know.

5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

"believes" is present tense. "has" is also present tense. This proves that from the very MOMENT one believes in Christ, they POSSESS eternal life. And 10:28 tells us it is Jesus Himself who gives eternal life.

So, recipients of eternal life, which are those who believe, per 5:24, are the ones who shall never perish.

Eternal security PROVEN!!

I'm not going to deal with this because of this author's failure to read straight in John 10:27.

Ridiculous statement. Even King Saul, who God KILLED for his failures joined with Samuel after his death.

No one is saved by their lifestyle or loses salvation by their lifestyle.

All we really have to do is BELIEVE what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life in John 10:28. It is quite sad how many don't.



See I Corinthians 10:13 and Hebrews 3:7-4:7. In fact, the Apostle Paul (and the writer of Hebrews) says that as Israel fell so can we: “Take heed if you think you stand lest you fall!” (I Corinthians 10:12) If the people of God can’t fall from grace and salvation, then all of these warnings mean absolutely nothing. One more thing. Paul realized that if he did not “run the race” in the way that God wants he could be “disqualified” – in other words, he would “lose it”! See I Corinthians 9:24-27."

On John 3:18 and II Thess. 2:12: I did a little looking at these verses in both some English versions and also at the Greek verb tenses. The best I can tell it seems as if none of these clearly says NEVER believed. I suppose one could read that into the verse if needed: but I am curious as to why this sort of distinction needs to be made? It seems to me that the writer could have clearly stated it that way if he had wanted.

Here is John 10:27-29 KJV
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Really a simple clear powerful promise:
To the sheep of verse 27 Jesus gives eternal life and they will never perish or be plucked out of the Father's hand.

Are you a sheep? If you are, the promise is yours! PTL!

Do these posts apply to you also?

So if I renounce Christ, murder, rob and rape, I haven't been snatched from His hand?

To be more clear, all false religions, including but not limited to Catholicism. And many isms which are not classified as religions are false religions in essence, just like the examples I gave. There're dark, demonic, unclean spirits behind them.

Article said: "Perhaps one of the most powerful proofs that a child of God can be eternally lost is seen over and over again across the pages of the Old Testament."

Free Grace responded: "Ridiculous statement. Even King Saul, who God KILLED for his failures joined with Samuel after his death."

Since you mention King Saul, it is written the Spirit of the Lord departed from him: "14Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him." (1 Sam 16:14)

Even King David recognizes this as a possibility, that the Spirit of the Lord may be taken from him, in his famous penitential Psalm, Psalm 51: "
11Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.
12Restore to me the joy of your salvation
and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me." (Psa 51:11-12)

But perhaps the clearest Old Testament statement about this issue is from the Lord Himself in Ezekiel 18:

"21“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

24“But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?"