Do you believe in (OSAS) Once Saved, Always Saved?

To be real clear, this position is really the position of Jesus Christ Himself. Do you believe what I quoted from Him or not?

It seems you view some sins worse than others and will result in loss of salvation. But you don't have clear verses. And you CAN'T have such verses, because what Jesus said NAILS THE DOOR SHUT on loss of salvation. It isn't true, or Jesus is lying.

What's your choice here?

OK, so you DON'T believe what Jesus said in John 10:28. Well, that's just real sad.

And trying to trump Scripture with Scripture is a failure. Scripture is not contradicted.

I will ignore all the other verses you provided because they CANNOT refute what Jesus said. It's that clear.

Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. That is what He said. So there is NOTHING in the Bible that refutes what He said.

What this means is that ALL the verses you are using to preach loss of salvation are totally misunderstood.

Many verses have been posted already. 1 Thessalonians 4, etc...[/QUOTE]
As I pointed out, there is NO MENTION of Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

What verse actually shows Jesus doing this? I haven't found any.

There is nothing to tie together that will result in a pretrib rapture.

What there is that does tie together is the Bible teaching that there is ONE resurrection for the saved. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, 1 Cor 15:23.

There is also ONE resurrection for the unsaved, which will be the GWT judgment in Rev 20:11-15.

And Rev 20:5 specifically describes the resurrection of the saved as "the FIRST resurrection". Meaning, the SECOND resurrection, which will be of the unsaved, will occur 1,000 years later. All that in v.5.

Also, every mention of the "coming of Christ" in the NT refers to the Second Advent. Why? Because in the OT, there were ONLY TWO prophecies of the coming of the Messiah. The first one was as a baby to become the Suffering Servant. The second one was as King of kings, and Lord of lords. This one is the Second Advent which occurs at the END of the Tribulation, which is described in Rev 20:4,5.

1 Cor 15:23 says "But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. "

This verse places the singular resurrection of believers "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.

The blue words is that reference. The red words show who will be at this singular resurrection: "those who belong to Him", which means EVERY believer in human history, because EVERY person who has believed savingly in Jesus Christ does belong to Him.

So, there are the dots that prove a singular post Trip resurrection. Followed immediately by the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.

No glorified believer will be taken to heaven. There is no rapture. There will be a gathering of living believers and caught up to the air to meet the Lord and all the dead saints to receive their glorified bodies.

These are the dots to connect to understand the resurrection and glorification of all believers.

John 6:37 plus John 10:28

1 Peter 1:23 plus 1 John 5:4

As I pointed out, there is NO MENTION of Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

What verse actually shows Jesus doing this? I haven't found any.


There is nothing to tie together that will result in a pretrib rapture.

What there is that does tie together is the Bible teaching that there is ONE resurrection for the saved. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, 1 Cor 15:23.

There is also ONE resurrection for the unsaved, which will be the GWT judgment in Rev 20:11-15.

And Rev 20:5 specifically describes the resurrection of the saved as "the FIRST resurrection". Meaning, the SECOND resurrection, which will be of the unsaved, will occur 1,000 years later. All that in v.5.

Also, every mention of the "coming of Christ" in the NT refers to the Second Advent. Why? Because in the OT, there were ONLY TWO prophecies of the coming of the Messiah. The first one was as a baby to become the Suffering Servant. The second one was as King of kings, and Lord of lords. This one is the Second Advent which occurs at the END of the Tribulation, which is described in Rev 20:4,5.

1 Cor 15:23 says "But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. "

This verse places the singular resurrection of believers "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.

The blue words is that reference. The red words show who will be at this singular resurrection: "those who belong to Him", which means EVERY believer in human history, because EVERY person who has believed savingly in Jesus Christ does belong to Him.

So, there are the dots that prove a singular post Trip resurrection. Followed immediately by the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.

No glorified believer will be taken to heaven. There is no rapture. There will be a gathering of living believers and caught up to the air to meet the Lord and all the dead saints to receive their glorified bodies.

These are the dots to connect to understand the resurrection and glorification of all believers.[/QUOTE]
One problem. If we are to believe we're saved, but won't be saved from the great tribulation.
Part of that problem is that during the great tribulation people will still be able to come into God's grace.

Lastly, what scripture tells us the church will suffer the great tribulation?

This is a problem? And you are so willing to NOT believe the guarantee that Jesus gave in John 10:28.

He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Do you believe that or not? Simple question. Shows where your loyalty lies.

Mine is with Scripture. The church has been severely persecuted throughout its history. Not the US, until now. You'd better tighten your seat belt. We now have a fully Marxist government. And all major elements of our society have been deceived and are "woke". This is the satanic deception that the Bible has prophesied.

Again, no problem. Since the singular resurrection of all saved people doesn't occur until He comes back, all who respond during the tribulation will be involved in the resurrection.

Scripture doesn't have to make any kind of special worded sentence to satisfy those who want to see it. But this goes both ways.

You want a verse that specifically says the church will suffer the tribulation, yet you are quite willing to believe that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven, when there are NO verses that teach that.

Notice, I am not demanding any specific wording. I only ask for a verse clear enough to show Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

And there are NONE.

Do you believe there will be just ONE resurrection of the saved? If not, then you can't believe 1 Cor 15:23 or Acts 24:15.

I'll tell you what, you go with what you believe.

Ultimatums like yours are of no interest to me.

Even Job knew he was saved...


Job 33:27b-28

Titus 3:4-5

1 John 5:11-13 + John 6:47

What are you saying? That I’m a liar or being disingenuous? No need to make this go further than a simple Bible discussion.

Someone brought up rapture and I responded to it which you have yet to refute because you’re incapable of doing so. You’ll be refuted by scripture for months, no exaggeration, I’ve watched it happen on this site.

From 2 Corinthians 5:17 and Romans 6:13

Why, thank you. I think I will.

I'm confused as to what you are referring to here.

I said this:
FreeGrace2 said:
"This is a problem? And you are so willing to NOT believe the guarantee that Jesus gave in John 10:28.
He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Do you believe that or not? Simple question. Shows where your loyalty lies.
Mine is with Scripture."

I don't see any ultimatums here.

And this:
"Scripture doesn't have to make any kind of special worded sentence to satisfy those who want to see it. But this goes both ways.

You want a verse that specifically says the church will suffer the tribulation, yet you are quite willing to believe that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven, when there are NO verses that teach that.

Notice, I am not demanding any specific wording. I only ask for a verse clear enough to show Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
And there are NONE. "

Rather than an ultimatum here I make clear that I am NOT demanding specific wording.

I ended with this question:
"Do you believe there will be just ONE resurrection of the saved? If not, then you can't believe 1 Cor 15:23 or Acts 24:15."

So, could you direct me to the words that you took as being an "ultimatum"? Thank you.

The really ironic side to this OSAS picture is that the murdering Nazis went to heaven because, before they started their pagan murderous rampage, they accepted Jesus and the Holy Spirit into their hearts. And their 60 million victims were all sent to hell because the Jews didn't believe in Jesus, the Russians were atheists, and the Poles were Catholic.

You’re not “always saved” until you’re immortal. You’re not immortal until this happens:

Luke 20:34-36 KJV
34And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Prior to the resurrection, soul and body can still die or be destroyed per Matthew 10:28. Post-resurrection, there’s no such passage I’m aware of that says salvation can be lost.

The murdering Nazis were Roman Catholics. That would mean they're in purgatory, still.

The pope at the time, Pius the XII, aka/ Hitler's Pope, didn't excommunicate any of them, Including Hitler himself.

Let's add more Bible to the conversation, because says in Paul says in (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin. Also Paul says in (Rom. 5:13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. If there is no law, there is no sin!

Sisters and brothers how come none of these verses are read in the church? They were also written by the apostle Paul, I’ll tell you why, because if they were read it would put an end to this false teaching attributed to Paul concerning the unchangeable Royal Law of God. (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. And you thought love was kissing and hugging and rolling around in bed. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

And that is what God’s holy commandments are all about; the first four tells you how to love God and the last six tells you how to love your neighbor. If you love your God you will not do any thing to offend him, like having other gods before him. You will do as he says like remember the sabbath day to keep it holy on the seventh day of the week. If you love him you will obey him when he tells you not to eat certain meats etc… And the same goes for your fellow man, if you love your neighbor you wouldn’t steal from him, you wouldn’t kill him, you wouldn’t try and sleep with his wife and so on and so forth. This is God’s definition of love and it is perfect in its ways. So if you say that you know God, but you don’t keep his commandments, lets see what the Lord had specially written for you. (See exodus 20: 1-17)

(1John 2:3-4) (v.3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (v.4) he that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I've responded a number of times in this thread to the off topic interjection that is the rapture topic.
So clearly I am capable.

So the world would have remained an Eden if God didn't insert his law?

Wouldn't that mean sinners ask God to save them from himself?🤔

???? your last sentence is repugnant.

..."sacrifice for forgiveness is not available where sin is present"....