Satan and his angels

if we were to believe what your saying and make it our guide in life it’s salvation we have to face this guys word in the end

If this became our law

“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged:

condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned:

forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:35-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬


We could then see that it’s about being perfect in mercy towards others Matthew is talking about it isnt sinless perfection but being perfect in mercy

This is contemporary to Luke 6 there

“But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:44-45, 48‬ ‭

as he’s explaining this law of mercy to his disciples lovong enemies really turning Moses word upside down in many areas we learn from the gospel that none of us is sinless we’ve all sinned before so we all need mercy because one sin is the same as many it means we now are sentenced to death

the idea is to see our own sinful past lives when dealing with others who are acting sinful towards us. Like God has done for us all we all sinned and are worthy of death by the law , but he gave us mercy anyways our deeds deserved punishment like the person offending us but how will we deal with thoer offense ? Like God the father ? Or like man ?


“So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus isn’t going to judge us like Moses would he’s not going to say “ well you sinned so your lost “ we all have already sinned Sonora going to be judgement according to what the gospel says like for instance

judge not and you won’t be judged , forgive and you will be forgiven ect That’s Jesus speaking forward to judgement we want to make sure to always forgive and not retaliate evil for evil but instead leave room for the judge to judge the other person whom offended us like he judges us for all the offended we have been guilty of

if it’s about being sinless everyone is lost of it’s about sinners repenting and believing the gospel and receiving remission of sins then many can be saved as many as will hear and believe the gospel sent to save sinners from jidgement through repentance and changing our belief from corrupt to correct and pure

that happens because we begin hearing and believing the gospel it changes our minds belief our hearts desire. We need to make positively sure we don’t hold thkngs against others so Christ won’t hold anything against us

none of that applies to Satan.

yeah I never said any of it applied to Satan. I’ve made my view clear regarding Satan being redeemed was responding to another persons post having nothing whatsoever to do with Satan …..

We are not to use our fleshly minds to determine scripture. If we state something is of scripture, it needs scripture backup.

The history of fallen angels is not complete in scripture, but it is in the book of Enoch, and Enoch has been thought of as scripture by thousands of people. If we question the book of Enoch, we need to go to scripture to check it out. There are many scripture verses that verify fallen angels. Jude 1:6, 2 Peter 2:4, Matt. 25:41, Isaiah 14:12-15 for example.

Here's an interesting verse:

Col 1v20: "and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross."

The fallen angels cannot be redeemed for there is nowhere to put off the sin so when they sinned they tainted their whole being with no reversal.

All sin resides in the flesh which in the flesh dwells no good thing but they can put off the flesh and preserve the soul so their whole being is not tainted.

God has only offered grace to human beings...

the Angels are higher beings, our superiors at the present time.. We humans are simple.. Thus God has offered us very limited beings different options to the angels who have been and are in Gods presence in heaven.. Angels have no excuses because of their superior status..

God is truth, and God does not give different truths to different people. When God gave grace, God did not say this is truth for one people but not for another.

Hello Magenta,
Just FYI.
1 Enoch 71.14 says Enoch is the Messiah. I still cannot believe people quote Enoch as canon.

As per https://archive.org/details/AllTheBooksOfEnochenoch1Enoch2Enoch3/page/n31/mode/2up

1 Enoch 71
71.9 And Michael, and Raphael, and Gabriel, and Phanuel, and many Holy Angels without number, came out from that house.
71.10 And with them, the Head of Days, his head white, and pure, like wool, and his garments; indescribable.
71.11 And I fell upon my face, and my whole body melted, and my spirit was transformed; and I cried out in a loud voice, in the spirit of power, and I blessed, praised, and exalted.
71.12 And these blessings, which came out from my mouth, were pleasing before that Head of Days.
71.13 And that Head of Days came with Michael, Gabriel, Raphael and Phanuel, and thousands and tens of thousands of Angels without number.
71.14 And that Angel, came to me, and greeted me with his voice, and said to me: "You are the son of man who was born to righteousness, and righteousness remains over you, and the righteousness of the Head of Days will not leave you."
71.15 And he said to me: "He proclaims peace to you, in the name of the world which is to come, for from there, peace has come out, from the creation of the world; and so you will have it, for ever, and for ever and ever.

Note there are many rephrasings as per
https://davidwilber.com/articles/who-is-the-son-of-man-in-enoch#_ftn1

Grace is a truth of God, not one thing for one of his creation and something different for another. Truth is never dependent on who receives the truth.

No problem. Here are a few examples stating that humans and angels are not each other's kin, that Christ died for those under the Law (humans), and that there are "God's elect angels" and "Satan's angels", who are eternal destinations are distinct.


“When the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, in order to redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.” (Galatians 4:4–5)

“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us” (Galatians 3:13)

“Not all flesh is the same...there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies.” (1 Corinthians 15:39–40)

“I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His elect angels, to maintain these principles without bias.” (1 Timothy 5:21)

“Satan, who deceives the whole world was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.” (Revelation 12:9)

““Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;” (Matthew 25:41)

Rom 2:14 would be a fruitful addition to the Galatians references.

Gal 4:4-5 and Gal 3:13 show a group that Christ's sacrifice applies to, but by those passages alone, it does not explicitly exclude other possible unnamed groups. It doesn't exclude the possibility of grace for angels.

1 Cor 15:39-40 is also an interesting choice because prior to the judgement in Revelation, the first resurrection provides incorruptible bodies (of a heavenly nature rather than earthly, if we read to the end of 1 Cor 15). The body that one resides in still wouldn't address the sins, the grace of God is still needed. (It could be the case that an incorruptible body is one of several kinds of heavenly bodies of which angels might have corruptible heavenly bodies at first?).

Angels and men differ, but both worship Christ and both exist as fellowservants. It might be the case that Christ's sacrifice applies only to the redemption of men, but I still don't see a passage that would explicitly make that the case.

"And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God." - Rev 22:8-9 KJV

"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." - Rev 19:10 KJV

I can see how one might make the case for angels existing under a different set of rules when it comes to grace, I just don't see evidence that it would be necessarily the case that angels would not be eligible for grace.

Before you read my comment, ask yourself this: Why did Jesus have to become a man in order to redeem mankind?
Um...sure. Gentiles are humans, not angels.
"a group" contains an assumption that needs to be substantiated before it can be used as a premise.
But to say "those passages reveal who Christ's sacrifice applies to"...is substantiated, and therefore, a dependable premise for arguing a position.

But there is no Biblical evidence that His sacrifice may apply to other kinds of creatures.

Correct. A heavenly body is a body that contains no trace of sin's curse; heavenly bodies are fit for (i.e. compatible with) heaven.
Not only Angels and Humans worship God. Even the clouds and stars and animals praise God. All sorts of creatures, sentient and nonsentient, overlap in some areas of similarity. But it has nothing to do with their need or opportunity for mercy.
We ought not "go beyond what is written". We form our Biblical positions based on what is written, not what isn't written.
Some angels are "elect angels".
Some angels are "Satan's angels".

Two more point to finish this:
1. Jesus had to become a man so that He could redeem those who are affected by Adam's sin. If Christ didn't become a descendent of Adam, then the descendants of Adam couldn't be redeemed from the curse of Adam's sin.


You'll understand this concept better if you study what the "Kinsmen Redeemer" was in the book of Ruth. Simply put, the redeemer had to be of the same kin as those whom he redeemed. Christ did that for the human race by becoming one of us. He had to represent us to the father as one of our own brethren. You can't represent a race you're not a part of in terms of priestly sacrifice. That's why the animal sacrificial system could never ultimately satisfy God's wrath. We cannot be represented by another kind of creature. We needed a Kinsmen Redeemer.
And for this same reason, a human sacrifice cannot redeem angels.

2. The angels that sinned were imprisoned, and will remain there until judgment (2 Pet 2:4). I.e. the judgment of God will not avoid them.

1 Corinthians 6:3
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

No grace for the fallen angels.

You have it backwards. It is in fact the opposite of an assumption so long as we understand that "a group" does not necessarily imply that there are other groups. In the same way in statistics that a sample population may or may not be a whole population. The phrase "a flathead screwdriver is used screws" is a description of an object in relationship to a specific set of functions. But that description does necessarily represent the entire scope of that object's functions. In the same way that a description of a screwdriver's relationship to screws does not preclude its use as a paint-can opener, so too the description of God's grace to mankind does not negate the possibility of a grace mechanism for angels. What you are doing is called denying the antecedent. It isn't justified.

That wasn't my point. You referenced passages that stated a purpose relative to those under the law. One could misconstrue those to mean that the sacrifice was only for those under the Law (in an implied sense of the OT Law). We can approach this more broadly to accept that the passages either refer to any kind of law (such as that observed by the Gentiles) or that the passages only describe an aspect that God's grace applies to, and not a fully comprehensive explanation when considered in isolation.

Therefore the Gal passages alone can't be used to evidence an absence of a relationship between the sacrifice and angels.


And the reverse is also true if there is no Biblical evidence that His sacrifice could not apply to angels in some capacity. By denying that premise without evidence, you would be again committing the logical fallacy of denying the antecedent.

(More on the Biblical evidence later)

This premise can't be true because angels are heavenly beings but angels can sin. Unless you mean something else by sin's curse? By sin's curse do you mean an actual instance of sin performed or the presence of sinful nature?

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" - 2 Peter 2:4 KJV

I suppose you might be suggesting that an angel is compatible with heaven until they sin. Which is interesting. But it is still curious what you mean by that as sinful angels fight in the war in heaven.

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." - Rev 12:7-9 KJV

Do you interpret 2 Peter 2:4 and Rev 12:7-9 to be describing the same event?

In order for an angel to be cast out of heaven they must have started there. In order for an angel to sin they must have had a sinful nature. This seems at odds with the concept of an incorruptible body. This suggests that there are different kinds of heavenly bodies if that is the case.

Angels are capable of holding the prerequisite faith in Christ by this virtue. They aren't omniscient and do have free-will. These lay a foundation for a premise that angels may have some mean of appealing to the grace of God.

The implications in this case is more importantly understood if we were to consider the discovery of other sentient life, whether it is a sentient artificial intelligence, or some kind of undiscovered sentient cephalopod, or to artificially increase the intelligence of apes to human levels, etc. Does God's grace extend to nonhumans? If it doesn't, there would be no purpose in spreading God's word to nonhumans. If it possibly could, that creates an ethical responsibility to share God's word. And if it is bad to pray for Satan due to his ineligibility for salvation, it would then follow that the same principle applies to nonhumans if all nonhumans are ineligible for salvation by grace. There is a question of ethics at the root of this. There is a danger in assuming all nonhumans are graceless husks of some kind. There is therein a danger with dehumanization. And if there is no evidence to rule out grace for nonhumans, why make this assumption?

If we assume that nonhumans cannot inherit grace, can we assume that any evil action indicates that they are damned? There are implications to this.

Show me evidence that "Satan's angels" are incapable of changing course and acquiring grace. I don't disagree that there are categorical descriptions for "elect" vs "Satan's". What I am suggesting is that we cannot rule out the possibility that a given angel could change categories by the means of grace.

I see in Hebrews 2:

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted." - Hebrews 2:14-18 KJV

This would have been a good opening passage to make your argument from. But while it addresses that Christ's sacrifice wasn't for the benefit of being of an angelic nature, it still doesn't rule out the possibility of some other grace mechanism that could be granted to angels.

We see a repeating concept of transmutation in scripture. It may be the case that an angel in the nature of an angel cannot appeal to grace, but the same can be said of humans in the nature of an earthly carnal human. It is the spirit within that is nurtured and changed.

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [...] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Gal 3:26&29 KJV

"And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." - Mat 3:9 KJV

By this we can speculate that an angel could be saved, albeit just not necessarily saved as an angel (involving some kind of adoption into becoming a child of Abraham through faith in Christ). And while this doesn't give us concrete evidence of any particular angels having this kind of adoption, we see there is a plausible interpretation where an angel or any being or thing could be granted grace at God's will.

I am not proposing that it is necessarily the case that "fallen angels are eligible for redemption", I am suggesting that it is a possibility that can't be ruled out and is therefore worthy of consideration.

Like Shrödinger's cat, I am suggesting that there isn't enough information to collapse the wave function.

You have done an admirable study of what our scripture tells us about angels, but you are making many assumptions based on that study.

We must face it, our scripture does not completely explain angels, but the apocrypha does. If we decide to not let anything in the apocrypha into our minds to consider, we simply don't understand angels.

One way of angel study is to consider the apocrypha as possible and go to our canon to see if what it tells us is verified or not. The apocrypha is thought of as history. If we do this, scripture backs up what the apocrypha tells us.

For God so loved the world. "about judgment [the certainty of it], because the ruler of this world (Satan) has been judged and condemned." "Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons); " We know we will judge angels. We know what God gives He does not take back. So everything He created regarding the angels fallen or not He does not take back. So their body as I kinda lol understand is far superior to mans. So they are never looking for home. I wonder about all those that were born that were part angel part man what happen to them when they died. They were never meant to be.

Since its not written would seem this does not concern us here. Christ became flesh His own creation because God so loved the world.

You are assuming that the Redeemed, according to Scripture, is just "a group".
My position is that the Redeemed according to Scripture are the Redeemed.


It doesn't. The Law according to this passage refers to the Mosaic Law:

Paul is explaining the purpose and outcome of the Law throughout the whole letter.


That is literally the reason why God sent Jesus to die.
“God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law” (Gal 4:4–5)
Angels are not under the Law. Humans are.

Yes, that is what I meant.
Anything that decays, dies, corrupts, etc...is not compatible with heaven (the 3rd heaven), not to be confused with "heaven" as in the sky we see.
They are not the same event because 2 Pet 2:4 is a past event, whereas Rev 12:7-9 is a future event. It is possible, however, that the angels in Revelation are the same that were imprisoned because they will be released just before this war when the abyss is opened and they come up onto the earth to torment people who don't receive the mark of the beast (Rev 9).
Non-sequitur.
On the contrary, the Scripture indicates that angels do not understand grace:


1. There is evidence. I have offered numerous passages with contextual connections.
2. Because we are not supposed to "go beyond what is written" (1 Cor 6).

You're asking me to use circular reasoning. Since I'm already using this categorical distinction to support why they aren't redeemable, I cannot turn around and say that they aren't redeemable because they aren't elect angels.
As I already mentioned: "the eternal fire which has been kept ready for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41)

Do you think those angels can avoid what God has kept ready for them?
Do you know what it means to be an "elect" angel?


Let's explore that "other grace mechanism", then.
If not the sacrifice of Jesus, then who's blood could save the angels?

The angels have no provision for salvation
because salvation can only be found in the cleansing blood of Jesus, and His sacrifice does not benefit the angels.

I have stated that unless something in scripture explicitly and specifically excludes the possibility of the redemption of fallen angels that it remains a possibility. My only assumption (my thesis in this case) is that there is no passage that explicitly and specifically excludes the possibility.

The dominant school of thought here is that the main Biblical canon is authoritative, and that some key concepts such as the Trinity, etc. are also authoritative. The apocrypha is not usually considered authoritative here.

We can entertain a wider school of thought which also includes the deuterocanonical apocrypha. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But we should be cautious in our exploration in case there is some undetected contradiction that we are accepting as truth. E.g. the Gospel of Judas is an apocryphal text which is considered to contradict scriptural canon in some ways. Texts like that should be taken with a grain of salt.

We can use apocrypha as a starting point for interpretation but unless we consider it authorative it can't be used to rule out other interpretations.

All of this said, I haven't studied apocrypha but I would like to understand the perspective more. Do you have example apocryphal verses that deal with the exclusion of angels from grace?