Doctrine of Unconditional Election

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
awelight

awelight

Well-known member
#3,601
Aug 10, 2020
1,629
490
83
69
#3,601
John146 said:
In other words, the lost sheep of the house of Israel is not a reference to the body of Christ, the church, nor is it a reference to Gentiles. Gentiles are never referred to as sheep. (Nor is the reference "other sheep not of this fold.") The majority of the lost sheep (Jews) that Christ was sent for, rejected him as Messiah.
Click to expand...
Well you better hope we are, as Gentiles, referred to as Sheep. If not - we are in deep, unsaved waters, according to this:

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus,
Heb 13:21 make you perfect in every good thing to do his will, working in us that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.
 
awelight

awelight

Well-known member
#3,602
Aug 10, 2020
1,629
490
83
69
#3,602
FreeGrace2 said:
Most of what I post is for the benefit of anyone who is following along. Not just the other poster.


That would be a very good idea; using sound logical reasoning.


Which I've never done.


What you are intentionally ignoring is that a number of calvinist doctrines ARE in conflict with what Scripture says.
Click to expand...
Like I said earlier, you are dishonest and now try to use slight of hand to prove a point. I am sure others see your methodology.

You pulled up verse 26, as a response to my opposition about your third point. How in all that is right and just does this verse have anything to do with my post. It is outside of the scope of the conversation. Then you tried to be cute about it, with your smiley face.

Your hatred for Calvinism is blinding you to the Truth and you are clearly and willingly happy with your deception.

But since YOU brought up John 3:26 - let's see what it clearly says in the whole context:

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
A statement of FACT. If your not one of the Sheep, you will not believe. THE LORD SAID IT NOT ME.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Christ's Sheep hear His voice and are known by Him. A repeat of John 10:3 & 16.

John 10:28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
Who does He give Eternal Life to? The Sheep of verses 26 &27. Christ has already been given them and now states that NO ONE will snatch them from His hand. They are given of the Father and are His by Covenant. (Heb. 13:20 & 21)

John 10:29 My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Christ confirms what He said in verse 28b.

Thanks for leading us to some of the greatest passages in Scripture on Election.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#3,603
Jan 13, 2016
17,176
3,700
113
#3,603
awelight said:
Well you better hope we are, as Gentiles, referred to as Sheep. If not - we are in deep, unsaved waters, according to this:

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus,
Heb 13:21 make you perfect in every good thing to do his will, working in us that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Click to expand...
Hebrews is written to the Jews in the last days, right before the return of their Messiah. You and I will be already gone.
 
F

FreeGrace2

Banned
#3,604
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
#3,604
awelight said:
Like I said earlier, you are dishonest and now try to use slight of hand to prove a point.
Click to expand...
Said the one who wanted to use "sound logical reasoning". I have and you call me dishonest. That takes the cake.

You pulled up verse 26, as a response to my opposition about your third point. How in all that is right and just does this verse have anything to do with my post. It is outside of the scope of the conversation. Then you tried to be cute about it, with your smiley face.
Click to expand...
OK, forget the emoji. The entire chapter is about "sheep" as a metaphor for people. I guess you weren't able to see that.

Your hatred for Calvinism is blinding you to the Truth and you are clearly and willingly happy with your deception.
Click to expand...
Right. So because I disagree (not hate) the false doctrines of calvinism, you ramp up the rhetoric and call me a hater. The far left does that exact same thing. They accuse those who oppose them of what they are guilty of.

But since YOU brought up John 3:26 - let's see what it clearly says in the whole context:

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
A statement of FACT. If your not one of the Sheep, you will not believe. THE LORD SAID IT NOT ME.
Click to expand...
I keep hoping that you will read the verse CORRECTLY, but alas, seems you just won't.

You wrote: "if your not one of THE sheep". Yet, the verse quite plainly reads, "becaue ye are not of MY sheep".

Did you notice the difference between what you CLAIMED the verse says, and what the verse ACTUALLY does say? Probably not.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Christ's Sheep hear His voice and are known by Him. A repeat of John 10:3 & 16.

John 10:28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
Who does He give Eternal Life to? The Sheep of verses 26 &27. Christ has already been given them and now states that NO ONE will snatch them from His hand. They are given of the Father and are His by Covenant. (Heb. 13:20 & 21)

John 10:29 My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Christ confirms what He said in verse 28b.

Thanks for leading us to some of the greatest passages in Scripture on Election.
Click to expand...
You guys ae hilarious! There isn't ANY mention of election in the entire chapter. But you guys see a faulty doctrine everywhere, even though the calvinist version of the biblical doctrine doesn't exist.

Rather than "election", v.28-30 very clearly teaches eternal security. In fact, the most clear in the entire Bible.
 
Beckie

Beckie

Well-known member
#3,605
Feb 15, 2022
2,516
939
113
#3,605
John146 said:
Hebrews is written to the Jews in the last days, right before the return of their Messiah. You and I will be already gone.[/QUOTE} I would have never thought you think the Hebrews are part of the church.
Click to expand...
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

Senior Member
#3,606
Nov 17, 2015
4,114
965
113
#3,606
awelight said:
I just posted this on another thread. Thought you might enjoy it.

We must be sure we are on the same page here. When one says: The Gospel is offered to all. What does one mean by this?

If one means, the Gospel is offered indiscriminately to all - as in "proclaimed before all", then I agree. This is the role believers have in God's Salvation Plan. Preachers - preach it to all. Believers - witness to all.

If one means, the Gospel is offered to all - as in "Salvation is offered to all", I disagree. You will never find, in any good translation, the idea that Salvation is being offered to everyone or anyone. Indeed, you will not find a single verse of Scripture, that uses the word "offer or offered", related to one's Salvation. The Greek words translated "offer or offered", are related to Sacrifices of the OT or the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ and a few other references, such as meats being offered to idols.

In the KJV, the English word "offer" - is used 17 times, in the New Testament. In the NASB - 18 times.
In the KJV, the English word "offered" - is used 28 times, in the New Testament. In the NASB - 18 times, often translated "sacrifice" instead.

Once again - Nowhere, is the word "offer or offered", used in relationship to one's Salvation. The Gospel, is to be proclaimed to all indiscriminately. The non-elect, will not believe what is heard and the elect will hear the message and believe because they hear the Truth therein. The Sheep hear the voice of the Great Shephard and will not follow another. This is a PROMISE from our Lord - to His Sheep.

I ran across this in my research. I think it is well stated:

"The good news of the gospel is offered (Proclaimed) freely to all people without distinction. Some “high” Calvinists have objected to this doctrine on the grounds of God’s sovereign election, the doctrine of the particular atonement, the primacy of divine initiative, and the sinner’s complete inability to respond in faith apart from God’s regenerating grace. However, the reality is that sinners are all called to believe and are judged for their unbelief, not for whether or not they are elect. It is actually within the context of the universal refusal of man to believe that the doctrines of election, the atonement, and the sovereign initiative of God are most needed. These doctrines provide the solution to man’s refusal, not a reason to avoid the "proclamation" of the gospel in the first place."
Click to expand...
Preach the gospel to every creature because the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes.
 
J

Justified

Active member
#3,607
Jul 13, 2021
194
74
28
#3,607
Everlasting-Grace said:
Yur right, in the latter days some will depart from the faith. We see it today. The churches are dwindling

What you fail to do is translate Thats passage correctly.

John said people who claimed they once believed, but now deny christ were never saved.

Your calling John a liar. Not me

Jesus said whoever believed will never die and has eternal life

Again, Your calling Jesus a liar not me.
Click to expand...
Think you better read that text again my friend Joh_11:26 and everyone who lives and believes G4100 (G5719) in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

G5723
Tense-Present See [G5774]
Voice-Active See [G5784]
Mood -Participle See [G5796]

Tense-Present simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. The action is Progressive (Continuous)

They have to continue to believe, it is not a one and done situation. If they do not continue to believe then they will not be saved.
 
F

FreeGrace2

Banned
#3,608
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
#3,608
Justified said:
Think you better read that text again my friend Joh_11:26 and everyone who lives and believes G4100 (G5719) in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

G5723
Tense-Present See [G5774]
Voice-Active See [G5784]
Mood -Participle See [G5796]

Tense-Present simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. The action is Progressive (Continuous)

They have to continue to believe, it is not a one and done situation. If they do not continue to believe then they will not be saved.
Click to expand...
This is a sad fallacy. True, no one just beileves for just a second. People believe (something) until they change their mind, or not.

When Jesus was talking to a Samaritan woman at a well in John 4, He used a figure of speech for believing; drinking water.

13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks (present tense) this water will be thirsty again,
14 but whoever drinks (aorist tense) the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

By this, Jesus was teaching that from that moment of saving faith, the believer "will never thirst".

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has (present tense) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Here, Jesus said very plainly that those who believe (presently) POSSESS (presently) eternal life. iow, at the very moment a person becomes a believer, they POSSESS eternal life.

Now, if there are any verses that clearly indicate that this free gift of eternal life can be lost, you would have a point. But you don't.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Here, the red words is what Jesus does WHEN a person believes in Him, per John 5:24.
The blue words is the RESULT of what Jesus does when a person believes; the recipient of eternal life shall never die.

Back to John 4: Jesus told the woman that from a point in time "drink" she would never thirst. Here, in John 10:28, those given eternal life by Jesus shall never perish.

Parallel verses.

When a jailer asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved (Acts 16:30), Paul's answer was very clear:

"believe (aorist) on the Lord Jesus, and you will be (future) saved".

There are no warnings about losing salvation in the Bible. But there are clear warnings of God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11) for those who stray.
 
D

Duckybill

Well-known member
#3,610
Aug 16, 2021
1,145
221
63
#3,610
Everlasting-Grace said:
It would

Sadly for you. We are told God will NEVER FORSAKE US.

Where can we go that God is not there., As the psalmist says. wherever I go, there you are.

You think you can run from God??

Salvation is on God. not on you or I. If God fails to complete what he started. thats on him.
Click to expand...
Sadly for you, we are not told that we can't forsake God.
 
D

Duckybill

Well-known member
#3,611
Aug 16, 2021
1,145
221
63
#3,611
FreeGrace2 said:
rogerg said:
Wait - I don't understand, what's wrong with OSAS, isn't OSAS a good thing?

How silly. And totally unbiblical.

First, no one needs a "license to sin". The freedom to sin comes with your human nature. In fact, Paul directly addressed the issue of who the believer will obey: either sin or righteousness. Rom 6.

Second, there is NOTHING in the world that can make a Christian an unChristian.

You need to check your sources and get rid of them. Stay with the Bible and you won't go wrong.
Click to expand...
OSAS is a Satanic license to sin and still be saved.
 
D

Duckybill

Well-known member
#3,612
Aug 16, 2021
1,145
221
63
#3,612
FreeGrace2 said:
FreeGrace2 said:
Trying to move the goalposts?? I never said that people can't forsake God.

Well, let's see what the Bible says about your opinions.

First, an example. We have Chuck Templeton, a world class evangelist who mentored Billy Graham when he started out. But he couldn't reconcile a problem that he thought he found in the Bible and left the faith, and died an atheist. OK?

Now, what does the Bible say?

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

I would like you to focus on the bolded words, which occur in both verses: "have not believed".

That is who will be condemned at the GWT. Those who "have not believed".

Now, you may try to argue that Chuck Templeton was a fraud, a phony, and never believed what he preached. Really?? A man who dedicated his life to preaching the gospel, training and mentoring Billy Graham and leading thousands to Christ.

Why would anyone do that? It really stretches the imagination to even sugget such nonsense.

So, the 2 verses above teach that condemnation is for those who NEVER BELIEVED.

Without a doubt, Chuck T did believe. Then he changed his mind later on. It happens. But because he DID believe at one time, Jesus taught that those who believe POSSESS eternal life in John 5:24. Then He taught that those given eternal life (believers) shall never perish.

So, prepare to meet Chuck T in heaven after you die.
Click to expand...
Have you read the NT? Was Paul a Christian?

1 Corinthians 9:27 (NKJV)
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
 
D

Duckybill

Well-known member
#3,613
Aug 16, 2021
1,145
221
63
#3,613
FreeGrace2 said:
Wow. EVERY religion in history is a "works religion". Christian is the sole exception to religion. In fact, Christianity is NOT a religion.

It is a relationship with God, the Creator of the universe, through His Son, by means of faith.

What kind of cult are you in?
Click to expand...
Christian is not a religion?
 
D

Duckybill

Well-known member
#3,614
Aug 16, 2021
1,145
221
63
#3,614
Everlasting-Grace said:
nope.. written to a church. Not everyone in a church is saved,

These people had grace in their hands, and let it go before they acted on it. They went to their first and real love and what they had faith in, the law.
Click to expand...
You can't become "estranged from Christ" and "fallen from grace" unless you're a Christian. Satan has duped you!
 
D

Duckybill

Well-known member
#3,615
Aug 16, 2021
1,145
221
63
#3,615
[QUOTE="Everlasting-Grace, post: 4827579, member: 312779"]Christianity is the ONLY world religion not based on our works.. But on the work of the redeemer.[/QUOTE]
You just called James a liar.

"Faith without works is DEAD"
 
D

Duckybill

Well-known member
#3,617
Aug 16, 2021
1,145
221
63
#3,617
Avery said:
You sound unhinged. Although I am not OSAS nor am I persuaded that we have no choice (according to our current understanding of choice) The devil is given far more credit than what he deserves. Seriously though, this is a very condemning and dangerous comment you have made here.

Well all else fails, some people either say the other person is not a Christian and if that is not egregious enough, they declare the other person to be led of the devil. Who is the accuser though? Have you asked yourself that question?
Click to expand...
Typical OSASer who results to insults because he has ZERO Scripture!
 
Beckie

Beckie

Well-known member
#3,620
Feb 15, 2022
2,516
939
113
#3,620
Oblio said:
What gets me is when it comes right down to it, why do you people think I care about what any of you think when it comes to my relationship with the Lord? :eek:
Click to expand...
Because you are posting here?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.