Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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FreeGrace2 said:
Kinda backwards there.
God's grace offers salvation to everyone. Titus 2:11
Why would you blatantly argue with the Word of God??
New International Version
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
New Living Translation
For the grace of God has been revealed, bringing salvation to all people.
English Standard Version
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Berean Study Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone.
Berean Literal Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
King James Bible
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
New King James Version
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For the all saving grace of God has been revealed to all men;
Literal Standard Version
For the saving grace of God has appeared to all men,
Young's Literal Translation
For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men,
Whether "offers" or "brings" the concept is clear. Salvation is a free gift, offered to everyone. By God's grace, salvation is brought to mankind as a gift. It has to be received, taken in order to be possessed.
Like any other gift.
Gifts are offered. Not all are taken.
But Calvinists seem rather upset about that verse.
Kinda backwards there.
God's grace offers salvation to everyone. Titus 2:11
Why would you blatantly argue with the Word of God??
New International Version
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
New Living Translation
For the grace of God has been revealed, bringing salvation to all people.
English Standard Version
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Berean Study Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone.
Berean Literal Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
King James Bible
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
New King James Version
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For the all saving grace of God has been revealed to all men;
Literal Standard Version
For the saving grace of God has appeared to all men,
Young's Literal Translation
For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men,
Whether "offers" or "brings" the concept is clear. Salvation is a free gift, offered to everyone. By God's grace, salvation is brought to mankind as a gift. It has to be received, taken in order to be possessed.
Like any other gift.
Gifts are offered. Not all are taken.
But Calvinists seem rather upset about that verse.
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A
You sound unhinged. Although I am not OSAS nor am I persuaded that we have no choice (according to our current understanding of choice) The devil is given far more credit than what he deserves. Seriously though, this is a very condemning and dangerous comment you have made here.
Well all else fails, some people either say the other person is not a Christian and if that is not egregious enough, they declare the other person to be led of the devil. Who is the accuser though? Have you asked yourself that question?
Well all else fails, some people either say the other person is not a Christian and if that is not egregious enough, they declare the other person to be led of the devil. Who is the accuser though? Have you asked yourself that question?
The difference between "brings" and "offers" is huge - giving totally different meanings to the verse.
If someone has to receive a gift of themselves to get it, then it isn't a gift. A gift only becomes a gift when it is in the possession
of the receiver. Until then it is nothing. But salvation is described by the Bible as "free gift", so there can be no requirement
made of the receiver to obtain it - it has to have been already placed into their possession
If someone has to receive a gift of themselves to get it, then it isn't a gift. A gift only becomes a gift when it is in the possession
of the receiver. Until then it is nothing. But salvation is described by the Bible as "free gift", so there can be no requirement
made of the receiver to obtain it - it has to have been already placed into their possession
A
This is why I left this thread a number of pages back. It is absurd to go on with this nonsense of you are not a Christian or you are the devil or whatever. I cannot say how many times a believer in Sovereignty salvation has made such claims as every Christian forum I have ever encountered seems to be populated with certain people who believe we have no choice and therefore, can just blame God for everything that goes south and say it is His will.
They become angry and defensive if questioned and at times unreasonable as the post you responded to illustrates.
Sorry, but baloney. The words sin and consequence are heretical to their belief system.
They become angry and defensive if questioned and at times unreasonable as the post you responded to illustrates.
Sorry, but baloney. The words sin and consequence are heretical to their belief system.
FreeGrace2 said:
Whether "offers" or "brings" the concept is clear. Salvation is a free gift, offered to everyone. By God's grace, salvation is brought to mankind as a gift. It has to be received, taken in order to be possessed.
Like any other gift.
A gift is brought to someone. That doesn't mean the person takes the gift.
And that's NOT what occurs when salvation is received. To your calvinist mind, the gift is actually forced against the will of the person receiving the gift. But you can't find that anywhere in the Bible.
This is a false opinion. Are you that naive about how many hopeful guys have offered an engagement ring to a girl, only to have the gift turned down??? When the guy leaves, the GIFT is still in his pocket.
All you are doing is making up your own definitions to fit your own theology.
An object doesn't become a gift ONLY WHEN it is received. Where do you get your material?
An engagement ring IS a gift whether taken or not.
Your private interpretations and definitions are not valid.
That is correct. When you were offered a Christmas present, did you take it? How much did you have to pay for it? If not, then there was NO REQUIREMENT.
You seem confused as to what 'requirement' means.
That is simply your own private interpretation and definition.
It is not valid.
Everywhere in the Bible we find that salvation must be received. That doesn't mean forced into someone's hands.
It has to to with FAITH, TRUST. That's HOW the gift of salvation is received.
John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
This is how one receives salvation: by believing in His Name.
1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
The Bible equates believing with receiving. Not FORCING a gift into someone's hand.
btw, even if a gift is forced into one's hand, the person can still NOT hold onto the git, so that the gift falls to the ground. It is still a gift, just a gift that wasn't "claimed".
In the case of salvation, the gift of salvation/eternal life, the gift is "claimed on the basis of faith.
Whether "offers" or "brings" the concept is clear. Salvation is a free gift, offered to everyone. By God's grace, salvation is brought to mankind as a gift. It has to be received, taken in order to be possessed.
Like any other gift.
A gift is brought to someone. That doesn't mean the person takes the gift.
And that's NOT what occurs when salvation is received. To your calvinist mind, the gift is actually forced against the will of the person receiving the gift. But you can't find that anywhere in the Bible.
This is a false opinion. Are you that naive about how many hopeful guys have offered an engagement ring to a girl, only to have the gift turned down??? When the guy leaves, the GIFT is still in his pocket.
All you are doing is making up your own definitions to fit your own theology.
An object doesn't become a gift ONLY WHEN it is received. Where do you get your material?
An engagement ring IS a gift whether taken or not.
Your private interpretations and definitions are not valid.
That is correct. When you were offered a Christmas present, did you take it? How much did you have to pay for it? If not, then there was NO REQUIREMENT.
You seem confused as to what 'requirement' means.
That is simply your own private interpretation and definition.
It is not valid.
Everywhere in the Bible we find that salvation must be received. That doesn't mean forced into someone's hands.
It has to to with FAITH, TRUST. That's HOW the gift of salvation is received.
John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
This is how one receives salvation: by believing in His Name.
1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
The Bible equates believing with receiving. Not FORCING a gift into someone's hand.
btw, even if a gift is forced into one's hand, the person can still NOT hold onto the git, so that the gift falls to the ground. It is still a gift, just a gift that wasn't "claimed".
In the case of salvation, the gift of salvation/eternal life, the gift is "claimed on the basis of faith.
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"offers" means that something was made available to be voluntarily selected; 'brings' means it has already been brought (given) to its recipient: It isn't a gift until it is in the receiver's possession. With man's imperfect terms, definitions and perceptions, we label things intended to be gifts as gifts, but that doesn't make them that. Intention does not make something a gift.
As for your other points, as usual, you impose your biblically unsupportable interpretations/positions as gospel, so to speak. Just
because you declare something as so, doesn't make it so.
And with that, I am done with you on this topic.
As for your other points, as usual, you impose your biblically unsupportable interpretations/positions as gospel, so to speak. Just
because you declare something as so, doesn't make it so.
And with that, I am done with you on this topic.
Sorry, this is illogical. If, even just using your own words, grace is not offered to all, but salvation is, but salvation is only
through grace, then those to whom it is not offered, cannot be saved, right? How can salvation be offered without grace?
Salvation is through, and by, God's grace and mercy alone - they are all interdependent and interrelated.
through grace, then those to whom it is not offered, cannot be saved, right? How can salvation be offered without grace?
Salvation is through, and by, God's grace and mercy alone - they are all interdependent and interrelated.
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FreeGrace2 said:
A gift is brought to someone. That doesn't mean the person takes the gift.
I already addressed your error here. Go back and re-read. I even gave an example of bringing an engagement ring to a girl who rejects the gift. It's STILL a gift, but it's not on her finger, but in the pocket of the poor schmuck to offered it to her.
It is YOUR own terms, definitions and perceptions that are imperfect, as I've shown.
Well, there you are. It SURE DOES. That's where you keep going off the rails.
The poor schmuck INTENDS to give an engagement ring to his girlfriend. But she doesn't want to marry him, and rejects the ring.
The ring is a gift where you are able to comprehend it or not.
Sheesh. You're the one who is "declaring something" which isn't true. Where did you prove anything from Scripture?
I've already proven from Scripture that believing IS receiving the gift. John 1:12 and 1 Tim 1:16.
Might as well quit while you are behind.
A gift is brought to someone. That doesn't mean the person takes the gift.
I already addressed your error here. Go back and re-read. I even gave an example of bringing an engagement ring to a girl who rejects the gift. It's STILL a gift, but it's not on her finger, but in the pocket of the poor schmuck to offered it to her.
It is YOUR own terms, definitions and perceptions that are imperfect, as I've shown.
Well, there you are. It SURE DOES. That's where you keep going off the rails.
The poor schmuck INTENDS to give an engagement ring to his girlfriend. But she doesn't want to marry him, and rejects the ring.
The ring is a gift where you are able to comprehend it or not.
Sheesh. You're the one who is "declaring something" which isn't true. Where did you prove anything from Scripture?
I've already proven from Scripture that believing IS receiving the gift. John 1:12 and 1 Tim 1:16.
Might as well quit while you are behind.
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