Doctrine of Unconditional Election

lol. why? because I'm not going to have a discussion with you that take two days just to loop back around to end where I started.

I've provided you many scriptures multiple times that substantiate my statements, but you seem unwilling to grasp them, and post the same replies over and over again

- so what purpose does it serve? [/QUOT]
Your repeated responses show that you don't have any biblical support for your claims.

so what purpose does it serve?

But many will not be saved even though they could have too been saved by grace through faith.

Grace was given first, then faith - the faith that brings salvation is Christ's faith in that He was faithful to the Father
to bring to fruition His plan of salvation. Any faith we might demonstrate is as a result of Christ's faith, but is not that which saves.

[Rom 1:5 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[2Ti 1:9 KJV]
9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

[Tit 3:7 KJV]
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

[Phl
3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

grace is the cross. Apart from the cross all the faith in the world would not save us

Grace was given first, then faith - the faith that brings salvation is Christ's faith in that He was faithful to the Father to bring to fruition His plan of salvation. Any faith we might demonstrate is as a result of Christ's faith, but is not that which saves.

[Rom 1:5 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[2Ti 1:9 KJV]
9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

[Tit 3:7 KJV]
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Except the Bible doesn't teach that Christ's faith is given to anyone. Or if the Bible does say that, please share the verse, please.

lol. It was only because of grace that there was a cross. Grace first.

[2Ti 1:9 KJV]
9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

I think I said reckoned, but be that as it may, logically speaking same difference.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Rom 4:8 KJV] 8 Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

rogerg,

You put a red x'd circle on my posts 3,575 and 3,576 to show your "disagreement".

Instead of that, why don't you actually engage and address my posts, where you disagree and provide an explanation with Scripture that backs up your disagreement. That's how to have an adult discussion.

The use of these symbols to vent disagreement is akin to a child sticking out their tongue when they disagree.

If you are able to explain your disagreement and include Scripture that supports your disagreement, I would actually appreciate it.

It is a waste of time to put those silly little stickers on the posts of others. It proves nothing and only reveals your emotions.

However, since calvinism claims that God's plan is to choose ONLY SOME, and that without any conditions, for salvation, means that presenting the gospel to what they call the "non-elect" would be a LIE. Why offer/proclaim/present the gospel to anyone for whom it WASN'T designed. It seems calvinists just cannot fathom this FACT.


By all means disagree. That is your freedom. But your disagreement is with Scripture, because Titus 2:11 says exactly that.


New International Version
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people,
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For the all saving grace of God has been revealed to all men;
NET Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.
New Revised Standard Version
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all,
New Heart English Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,
Christian Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people,
American Standard Version
For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,


So when Paul preached "Christ died for our sins", he was INCLUDING the crowds in that. iow, "Christ died for all of our (yours and mine) sins".


This is a verse about what believers (His sheep) do. They are already believers. btw, Jesus said, in John 10, that He would lay down His life for THE THE THE sheep, while identifying 3 categories of sheep:
1. My sheep (Jewish believers)
2. other sheep of Mine (Gentile believers)
3. not of My sheep (unbelievers)

So saying He would die for THE THE THE sheep, He was saying that He would die for everyone.

This is a PROMISE from our Lord - to His Sheep.


What a contradiction!!

Just listen to the contradiction: However, the reality is that sinners are all called to believe and are judged for their unbelief, not for whether or not they are elect.

Since calvinists believe that God chooses/elects who will believe, why are "all" called to believe, since that isn't God's plan??

And judging someone for an action (or non-action) that they weren't chosen for is the height of evil unfairness.

But, calvinists simply cannot or will not comprehend any of this.

I am going to reply to this - if not for your sake - then those who might be following along.

In particular, your reply to my previous post. I had said: "The Sheep hear the voice of the Great Shephard and will not follow another."

You responded with the following:

This is a verse about what believers (His sheep) do. They are already believers. btw, Jesus said, in John 10, that He would lay down His life for THE THE THE sheep, while identifying 3 categories of sheep:
1. My sheep (Jewish believers)
2. other sheep of Mine (Gentile believers)
3. not of My sheep (unbelievers)

So saying He would die for THE THE THE sheep, He was saying that He would die for everyone.

Let's take this step by step. Let us also use sound logical reasoning - if possible. Try to keep your comments to the immediate subject at hand and not ignore my points by trying to use Scripture against Scripture. ALL Scripture harmonizes. They are not in conflict with one another. Now to the point:

This is a verse about what believers (His sheep) do. They are already believers. btw,

I don't know which particular verse you were referring too, but let's see how these two claims hold up in the entire context about the Sheep.
1.) It is not about what the Sheep will do - it is about what the Lord will do. Proof: a.) John 10:3 To him the porter opens; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out. b.) John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. c.) John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd.
2.) There are references to present believers, however, they cannot all be current believers because verse 16 says: And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring,
Additionally, if this was only about current believers, then Christ laying down His life for the Sheep would make no sense. This would make the efficacy of His sacrifice only for current believers and not for past or future believers. We know that is not the case.

Jesus said, in John 10, that He would lay down His life for THE THE THE sheep, while identifying 3 categories of sheep:
1. My sheep (Jewish believers)

If you mean Jewish believers - past, present and future - Then we are in agreement. The term "fold" means: All of the same kind and varies from the term "flock", which means: A group or assembly of sheep in one place. Therefore, we can conclude, these are the chosen of God that are of the Jewish fold.

2. other sheep of Mine (Gentile believers)

This too would be Gentile believers - past, present and future - Verse 16 says: And other sheep I have... Note the emphasis is on possession. Jesus was already in possession of them but they were yet called and brought to safety. He further clarifies who they are by saying: ..which are not of this fold,,, Meaning: Not of this Jewish fold, therefore, Gentiles. The Proof here, is in verse 16b: ..and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Thus, the two folds were not yet one but would become one flock and are assembled together under one Shepherd. And other sheep I have... Constitute the Gentiles chosen by God.

3. not of My sheep (unbelievers)

This point, is a figment of your imagination. There are NO verses that state anything about: not of My sheep. However, I will assume you were making reference to verse 16 and this part: ..which are not of this fold,, Not of this "fold" does not mean "not of my sheep". No form of literary gymnastics will make this true. Obviously, "not of this fold", in no way precludes the understanding, that sheep are still being discussed.

So saying He would die for THE THE THE sheep, He was saying that He would die for everyone

Since point number 3. is invalid and only two groups are in view, Jew and Gentile, this makes your final conclusion invalid as well.

One last point. If you knew anything about sheep farming or raising of sheep, then you would know that a "sheepfold", is related to where sheep are kept at night. The sheepfold represents safety for the sheep. As it relates to John 10 - Many "flocks" would be brought into the sheepfold at night. What they had in common - was the region in which they grazed. What was uncommon - was they were owned by various owners. In the morning, the shepherd would come and lead his flock out of the sheepfold. This is done by his recognition of them and by calling his sheep and the sheep recognize his voice and follow him. The Jews would have recognized and understood these facts, as the Lord spoke. However, they would have had great problems with verses 17 and 18.

To "reckon" means to "consider".

The house of Israel is a reference used throughout scripture and is always a reference to the entire nation of Israel and never a called out group from that nation. For example:

Exodus 40:38 For the cloud of the Lord was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was on it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys.

Why should he????? You don't!!!

I am not sure if I understand the point you were trying to make. Please clarify.

I agree with Exo. 40:38. The Lord was upon the Tabernacle because it was a structure He ordered built. It was the place where the Lord hung His name. When Israel made camp, the tabernacle was always n the center of the camp. The symbolism of this, was to show that the Lord and worship of Him was to be the center of their life.

However, it in no way illustrates, that all of the assembly of the house of Israel, was Israel - As it relates to Salvation.

The Apostle Paul said:

Rom_9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has come to nothing. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:

Rom_11:2 God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:

Rom_11:7 What then? That which Israel is seeking for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened:

I am going to reply to this - if not for your sake - then those who might be following along.

In particular, your reply to my previous post. I had said: "The Sheep hear the voice of the Great Shephard and will not follow another."

You responded with the following:

This is a verse about what believers (His sheep) do. They are already believers. btw, Jesus said, in John 10, that He would lay down His life for THE THE THE sheep, while identifying 3 categories of sheep:
1. My sheep (Jewish believers)
2. other sheep of Mine (Gentile believers)
3. not of My sheep (unbelievers)

So saying He would die for THE THE THE sheep, He was saying that He would die for everyone.

Let's take this step by step. Let us also use sound logical reasoning - if possible.

Try to keep your comments to the immediate subject at hand and not ignore my points by trying to use Scripture against Scripture.

ALL Scripture harmonizes. They are not in conflict with one another.

Now to the point:

This is a verse about what believers (His sheep) do. They are already believers. btw,

I don't know which particular verse you were referring too, but let's see how these two claims hold up in the entire context about the Sheep.
1.) It is not about what the Sheep will do - it is about what the Lord will do.

Folks seem to think they have to find God but God is not lost .

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Guess Jesus never read the dispensational theory's of the Dallas Theological Seminary .