Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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"f not for grace. you could not be given the ability to look up to the cross. Like the children of Israel did when moses lifted the serpent. And then you would not be able to trust God while looking on him. and not yourself."
So, you are saying that those who are not given grace cannot be saved, right? Then, according to your POV, who those to whom grace is given, and how do they obtain it?
This is what the Bible tells us. That if grace is given to someone, those who receive it must be saved - nothing can stop it -- nothing else is required.
[Eph 1:7 KJV]
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
So, you are saying that those who are not given grace cannot be saved, right? Then, according to your POV, who those to whom grace is given, and how do they obtain it?
This is what the Bible tells us. That if grace is given to someone, those who receive it must be saved - nothing can stop it -- nothing else is required.
[Eph 1:7 KJV]
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
rogerg said:
The difference between "brings" and "offers" is huge - giving totally different meanings to the verse.
If someone has to receive a gift of themselves to get it, then it isn't a gift. A gift only becomes a gift when it is in the possession
of the receiver. Until then it is nothing. But salvation is described by the Bible as "free gift", so there can be no requirement
made of the receiver to obtain it - it has to have been already placed into their possession
I think his view is that God has preselected some to HAVE the gift, and He simply FORCES it into their hand.
The difference between "brings" and "offers" is huge - giving totally different meanings to the verse.
If someone has to receive a gift of themselves to get it, then it isn't a gift. A gift only becomes a gift when it is in the possession
of the receiver. Until then it is nothing. But salvation is described by the Bible as "free gift", so there can be no requirement
made of the receiver to obtain it - it has to have been already placed into their possession
I think his view is that God has preselected some to HAVE the gift, and He simply FORCES it into their hand.
I just posted this on another thread. Thought you might enjoy it.
We must be sure we are on the same page here. When one says: The Gospel is offered to all. What does one mean by this?
If one means, the Gospel is offered indiscriminately to all - as in "proclaimed before all", then I agree. This is the role believers have in God's Salvation Plan. Preachers - preach it to all. Believers - witness to all.
If one means, the Gospel is offered to all - as in "Salvation is offered to all", I disagree. You will never find, in any good translation, the idea that Salvation is being offered to everyone or anyone. Indeed, you will not find a single verse of Scripture, that uses the word "offer or offered", related to one's Salvation. The Greek words translated "offer or offered", are related to Sacrifices of the OT or the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ and a few other references, such as meats being offered to idols.
In the KJV, the English word "offer" - is used 17 times, in the New Testament. In the NASB - 18 times.
In the KJV, the English word "offered" - is used 28 times, in the New Testament. In the NASB - 18 times, often translated "sacrifice" instead.
Once again - Nowhere, is the word "offer or offered", used in relationship to one's Salvation. The Gospel, is to be proclaimed to all indiscriminately. The non-elect, will not believe what is heard and the elect will hear the message and believe because they hear the Truth therein. The Sheep hear the voice of the Great Shephard and will not follow another. This is a PROMISE from our Lord - to His Sheep.
I ran across this in my research. I think it is well stated:
"The good news of the gospel is offered (Proclaimed) freely to all people without distinction. Some “high” Calvinists have objected to this doctrine on the grounds of God’s sovereign election, the doctrine of the particular atonement, the primacy of divine initiative, and the sinner’s complete inability to respond in faith apart from God’s regenerating grace. However, the reality is that sinners are all called to believe and are judged for their unbelief, not for whether or not they are elect. It is actually within the context of the universal refusal of man to believe that the doctrines of election, the atonement, and the sovereign initiative of God are most needed. These doctrines provide the solution to man’s refusal, not a reason to avoid the "proclamation" of the gospel in the first place."
We must be sure we are on the same page here. When one says: The Gospel is offered to all. What does one mean by this?
If one means, the Gospel is offered indiscriminately to all - as in "proclaimed before all", then I agree. This is the role believers have in God's Salvation Plan. Preachers - preach it to all. Believers - witness to all.
If one means, the Gospel is offered to all - as in "Salvation is offered to all", I disagree. You will never find, in any good translation, the idea that Salvation is being offered to everyone or anyone. Indeed, you will not find a single verse of Scripture, that uses the word "offer or offered", related to one's Salvation. The Greek words translated "offer or offered", are related to Sacrifices of the OT or the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ and a few other references, such as meats being offered to idols.
In the KJV, the English word "offer" - is used 17 times, in the New Testament. In the NASB - 18 times.
In the KJV, the English word "offered" - is used 28 times, in the New Testament. In the NASB - 18 times, often translated "sacrifice" instead.
Once again - Nowhere, is the word "offer or offered", used in relationship to one's Salvation. The Gospel, is to be proclaimed to all indiscriminately. The non-elect, will not believe what is heard and the elect will hear the message and believe because they hear the Truth therein. The Sheep hear the voice of the Great Shephard and will not follow another. This is a PROMISE from our Lord - to His Sheep.
I ran across this in my research. I think it is well stated:
"The good news of the gospel is offered (Proclaimed) freely to all people without distinction. Some “high” Calvinists have objected to this doctrine on the grounds of God’s sovereign election, the doctrine of the particular atonement, the primacy of divine initiative, and the sinner’s complete inability to respond in faith apart from God’s regenerating grace. However, the reality is that sinners are all called to believe and are judged for their unbelief, not for whether or not they are elect. It is actually within the context of the universal refusal of man to believe that the doctrines of election, the atonement, and the sovereign initiative of God are most needed. These doctrines provide the solution to man’s refusal, not a reason to avoid the "proclamation" of the gospel in the first place."
However, since calvinism claims that God's plan is to choose ONLY SOME, and that without any conditions, for salvation, means that presenting the gospel to what they call the "non-elect" would be a LIE. Why offer/proclaim/present the gospel to anyone for whom it WASN'T designed. It seems calvinists just cannot fathom this FACT.
By all means disagree. That is your freedom. But your disagreement is with Scripture, because Titus 2:11 says exactly that.
New International Version
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people,
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For the all saving grace of God has been revealed to all men;
NET Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.
New Revised Standard Version
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all,
New Heart English Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,
Christian Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people,
American Standard Version
For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
You may disagree all you want, but the verse is clear in many translations. We know that salvation is a gift. We know that God's grace brings that gift to everyone, all men, all people, everyone.
SEe the 9 verses above.
[QUOT]The Gospel, is to be proclaimed to all indiscriminately. The non-elect, will not believe what is heard and the elect will hear the message and believe because they hear the Truth therein.[/QUOTE]
Since calvinists believe that the gospel is NOT for the "non-elect", to proclaim it TO them is LYING TO THEM.
This is Paul's explanation of what is of "first importance":
1 Cor 15-
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve.
6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
The bolded words is FIRST in Paul's list of what is of "first importance".
And then Paul finishes off that section of ch 15 with this:
v.11 - Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
So, Paul preached INDICRIMINATELY to everyone. And what he said to all of them is that Christ died for their sins.
If you want to fall off the rails and argue that "our sins" would refer only to Paul and his entourage, that's your business. But what a stupid argument, if that is what you think. Why would any evangelist tell a crowd that Christ died for his sins, and leave all of the crowd out? That makes no sense.
So when Paul preached "Christ died for our sins", he was INCLUDING the crowds in that. iow, "Christ died for all of our (yours and mine) sins".
This is a verse about what believers (His sheep) do. They are already believers. btw, Jesus said, in John 10, that He would lay down His life for THE THE THE sheep, while identifying 3 categories of sheep:
1. My sheep (Jewish believers)
2. other sheep of Mine (Gentile believers)
3. not of My sheep (unbelievers)
So saying He would die for THE THE THE sheep, He was saying that He would die for everyone.
This is a PROMISE from our Lord - to His Sheep.
What a contradiction!!
Just listen to the contradiction: However, the reality is that sinners are all called to believe and are judged for their unbelief, not for whether or not they are elect.
Since calvinists believe that God chooses/elects who will believe, why are "all" called to believe, since that isn't God's plan??
And judging someone for an action (or non-action) that they weren't chosen for is the height of evil unfairness.
But, calvinists simply cannot or will not comprehend any of this.
By all means disagree. That is your freedom. But your disagreement is with Scripture, because Titus 2:11 says exactly that.
New International Version
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people,
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For the all saving grace of God has been revealed to all men;
NET Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.
New Revised Standard Version
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all,
New Heart English Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,
Christian Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people,
American Standard Version
For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
You may disagree all you want, but the verse is clear in many translations. We know that salvation is a gift. We know that God's grace brings that gift to everyone, all men, all people, everyone.
SEe the 9 verses above.
[QUOT]The Gospel, is to be proclaimed to all indiscriminately. The non-elect, will not believe what is heard and the elect will hear the message and believe because they hear the Truth therein.[/QUOTE]
Since calvinists believe that the gospel is NOT for the "non-elect", to proclaim it TO them is LYING TO THEM.
This is Paul's explanation of what is of "first importance":
1 Cor 15-
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve.
6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
The bolded words is FIRST in Paul's list of what is of "first importance".
And then Paul finishes off that section of ch 15 with this:
v.11 - Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
So, Paul preached INDICRIMINATELY to everyone. And what he said to all of them is that Christ died for their sins.
If you want to fall off the rails and argue that "our sins" would refer only to Paul and his entourage, that's your business. But what a stupid argument, if that is what you think. Why would any evangelist tell a crowd that Christ died for his sins, and leave all of the crowd out? That makes no sense.
So when Paul preached "Christ died for our sins", he was INCLUDING the crowds in that. iow, "Christ died for all of our (yours and mine) sins".
This is a verse about what believers (His sheep) do. They are already believers. btw, Jesus said, in John 10, that He would lay down His life for THE THE THE sheep, while identifying 3 categories of sheep:
1. My sheep (Jewish believers)
2. other sheep of Mine (Gentile believers)
3. not of My sheep (unbelievers)
So saying He would die for THE THE THE sheep, He was saying that He would die for everyone.
This is a PROMISE from our Lord - to His Sheep.
What a contradiction!!
Just listen to the contradiction: However, the reality is that sinners are all called to believe and are judged for their unbelief, not for whether or not they are elect.
Since calvinists believe that God chooses/elects who will believe, why are "all" called to believe, since that isn't God's plan??
And judging someone for an action (or non-action) that they weren't chosen for is the height of evil unfairness.
But, calvinists simply cannot or will not comprehend any of this.
FreeGrace2 said:
I think his view is that God has preselected some to HAVE the gift, and He simply FORCES it into their hand.
Thank you for acknowledging that I am paying attention to what others post. I do not want to mischaracterize anyone.
Now, for your admission, at least you are honest about what you believe.
The problem is, there are NO verses that support your opinion.
And like the Bereans of Acts 17:11, I HAVE "searched the Scriptures daily to see if what calvinists say is true". And they aren't true.
If they were, I would be one of them.
I think his view is that God has preselected some to HAVE the gift, and He simply FORCES it into their hand.
Thank you for acknowledging that I am paying attention to what others post. I do not want to mischaracterize anyone.
Now, for your admission, at least you are honest about what you believe.
The problem is, there are NO verses that support your opinion.
And like the Bereans of Acts 17:11, I HAVE "searched the Scriptures daily to see if what calvinists say is true". And they aren't true.
If they were, I would be one of them.
Really, well perhaps you missed some or just didn't understand them. Do you realize that scripture unquestionably teaches that Christ alone is the Saviour? What do you think that means? Does scripture teach that we can save ourselves?
Where in the below do you find man contributing anything? Think you'd better go back and search the Scriptures again.
[Eph 2:4-6 KJV]
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Where in the below do you find man contributing anything? Think you'd better go back and search the Scriptures again.
[Eph 2:4-6 KJV]
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
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I was going to give you a lengthy reply, however - You are soo disingenuous and dishonest with your replies - I will not.
Titus 2:11 does not prove anything about an "offer" of Salvation. It clearly states, that the Grace of God, brings Salvation to all men. (σωτηριος πασιν ανθρωποις). The NIV has no authority to use the word "offer" according to the Greek Language.
You also edited out, my clear references using the word "offer and offered" and how they are used in Scripture, 18 times and 28 times, respectively.
Your other answers, either ignored what my conclusions were and /or edited them out.
Is this the way you think a serious conversation should progress? You are talking to me, not John Calvin. You will not answer Scripture presented but scatter shot all over the Scriptures in order to confuse the topic under discussion and edit out what you cannot defend.
Therefore, my conclusion is this: 1Jn_4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he who is not of God heareth us not. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Titus 2:11 does not prove anything about an "offer" of Salvation. It clearly states, that the Grace of God, brings Salvation to all men. (σωτηριος πασιν ανθρωποις). The NIV has no authority to use the word "offer" according to the Greek Language.
You also edited out, my clear references using the word "offer and offered" and how they are used in Scripture, 18 times and 28 times, respectively.
Your other answers, either ignored what my conclusions were and /or edited them out.
Is this the way you think a serious conversation should progress? You are talking to me, not John Calvin. You will not answer Scripture presented but scatter shot all over the Scriptures in order to confuse the topic under discussion and edit out what you cannot defend.
Therefore, my conclusion is this: 1Jn_4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he who is not of God heareth us not. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
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FreeGrace2 said:
The problem is, there are NO verses that support your opinion.
And like the Bereans of Acts 17:11, I HAVE "searched the Scriptures daily to see if what calvinists say is true". And they aren't true.
If they were, I would be one of them.
Yes, I REALLY would. If there was evidence for calvinism's claims. You bet I would.
Please educate and enlighten me, then.
Yes. And that isn't calvinism. That is pure Scripture.
Sure, drag out that old saw about having the ability to believe the gospel equals saving oneself. Nonsense. It's the calvinists that just do not understand or comprehend.
Man contributes nothing to his salvation. What is your point?
Having been searching Scriptures for about 2 decades has served me well. Calvinism doesn't exist in Scripture.
Great passage. But where is your explanation that shows support of calvinism?
Consider v.5. The phrase "has quickened us" refers to regeneration, or being born again. The phrase at the end of the verse is "by grace you are saved". That explains what being "quickened" means.
iow, Paul equates being born again with being saved. Very clearly.
Now, v.8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
The bolded phrase is the SAME WORDS at the end of v.5. And since regeneration/being born again was equated with salvation in v.5, here in v.8 we see that both regeneration and salvation are 'THROUGH FAITH'.
iow, the means or mechanism of both regeneration and salvation are faith. Faith PRECEDES both regeneration and salvation.
This refutes one of calvinism's claims.
The problem is, there are NO verses that support your opinion.
And like the Bereans of Acts 17:11, I HAVE "searched the Scriptures daily to see if what calvinists say is true". And they aren't true.
If they were, I would be one of them.
Yes, I REALLY would. If there was evidence for calvinism's claims. You bet I would.
Please educate and enlighten me, then.
Yes. And that isn't calvinism. That is pure Scripture.
Sure, drag out that old saw about having the ability to believe the gospel equals saving oneself. Nonsense. It's the calvinists that just do not understand or comprehend.
Man contributes nothing to his salvation. What is your point?
Having been searching Scriptures for about 2 decades has served me well. Calvinism doesn't exist in Scripture.
Great passage. But where is your explanation that shows support of calvinism?
Consider v.5. The phrase "has quickened us" refers to regeneration, or being born again. The phrase at the end of the verse is "by grace you are saved". That explains what being "quickened" means.
iow, Paul equates being born again with being saved. Very clearly.
Now, v.8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
The bolded phrase is the SAME WORDS at the end of v.5. And since regeneration/being born again was equated with salvation in v.5, here in v.8 we see that both regeneration and salvation are 'THROUGH FAITH'.
iow, the means or mechanism of both regeneration and salvation are faith. Faith PRECEDES both regeneration and salvation.
This refutes one of calvinism's claims.
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FreeGrace2 said:
New International Version
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people,
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For the all saving grace of God has been revealed to all men;
NET Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.
New Revised Standard Version
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all,
New Heart English Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,
Christian Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people,
American Standard Version
For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Wow, you have actually described my quoting of Scripture as being "soo disingenuous and dishonest". Really?? At least you have revealed your soul here, and told us what you think of quoting Scripture that refutes your unbiblical ideas.
There is no reason to response to such silly comments. The verse speaks for itself.
Many of the translations I shared say that exact thing. So why pick on the NIV? Are you even paying attention?
So what? I already quoted many verses that said the same thing as your favored translation.
If I addressed EVERY silly opinion, I would be timed out on posting.
Stop the whining. You haven't proven your case at all. I gave the example of a guy who brings an engagement ring to his girlfriend, but is refused. In your world of confusion, since the guy BROUGHT the gift to the girl, she MUST have accepted the gift.
See how silly that is? The guy brought the gift. Means the same as the guy offering the gift. There is no difference and you haven't shown any material difference. Just your opinion.
No kidding!! Thanks for the fyi.
Such a statement really suggests how disoriented you are regarding my posts. I directly address what I read. This is just more whining.
Sure. You're on God's side and I'm not because I don't agree with you.
If only you guys could understand just how childish that kind of response is.
New International Version
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people,
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For the all saving grace of God has been revealed to all men;
NET Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.
New Revised Standard Version
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all,
New Heart English Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,
Christian Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people,
American Standard Version
For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Wow, you have actually described my quoting of Scripture as being "soo disingenuous and dishonest". Really?? At least you have revealed your soul here, and told us what you think of quoting Scripture that refutes your unbiblical ideas.
There is no reason to response to such silly comments. The verse speaks for itself.
Many of the translations I shared say that exact thing. So why pick on the NIV? Are you even paying attention?
So what? I already quoted many verses that said the same thing as your favored translation.
If I addressed EVERY silly opinion, I would be timed out on posting.
Stop the whining. You haven't proven your case at all. I gave the example of a guy who brings an engagement ring to his girlfriend, but is refused. In your world of confusion, since the guy BROUGHT the gift to the girl, she MUST have accepted the gift.
See how silly that is? The guy brought the gift. Means the same as the guy offering the gift. There is no difference and you haven't shown any material difference. Just your opinion.
No kidding!! Thanks for the fyi.
Such a statement really suggests how disoriented you are regarding my posts. I directly address what I read. This is just more whining.
Sure. You're on God's side and I'm not because I don't agree with you.
If only you guys could understand just how childish that kind of response is.
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rogerg,
You put a red x'd circle on my posts 3,575 and 3,576 to show your "disagreement".
Instead of that, why don't you actually engage and address my posts, where you disagree and provide an explanation with Scripture that backs up your disagreement. That's how to have an adult discussion.
The use of these symbols to vent disagreement is akin to a child sticking out their tongue when they disagree.
If you are able to explain your disagreement and include Scripture that supports your disagreement, I would actually appreciate it.
It is a waste of time to put those silly little stickers on the posts of others. It proves nothing and only reveals your emotions.
You put a red x'd circle on my posts 3,575 and 3,576 to show your "disagreement".
Instead of that, why don't you actually engage and address my posts, where you disagree and provide an explanation with Scripture that backs up your disagreement. That's how to have an adult discussion.
The use of these symbols to vent disagreement is akin to a child sticking out their tongue when they disagree.
If you are able to explain your disagreement and include Scripture that supports your disagreement, I would actually appreciate it.
It is a waste of time to put those silly little stickers on the posts of others. It proves nothing and only reveals your emotions.
lol. why? because I'm not going to have a discussion with you that take two days just to loop back around to end where I started. I've provided you many scriptures multiple times that substantiate my statements, but you seem unwilling to grasp them, and post the same replies over and over again - so what purpose does it serve? Depending upon the discussion at-hand, henceforth, I'll reiterate once, maybe twice, but after that, I'll end it.
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rogerg said:
The difference between "brings" and "offers" is huge - giving totally different meanings to the verse.
If someone has to receive a gift of themselves to get it, then it isn't a gift. A gift only becomes a gift when it is in the possession
of the receiver. Until then it is nothing. But salvation is described by the Bible as "free gift", so there can be no requirement
made of the receiver to obtain it - it has to have been already placed into their possession
I think his view is that God has preselected some to HAVE the gift, and He simply FORCES it into their hand.
The difference between "brings" and "offers" is huge - giving totally different meanings to the verse.
If someone has to receive a gift of themselves to get it, then it isn't a gift. A gift only becomes a gift when it is in the possession
of the receiver. Until then it is nothing. But salvation is described by the Bible as "free gift", so there can be no requirement
made of the receiver to obtain it - it has to have been already placed into their possession
I think his view is that God has preselected some to HAVE the gift, and He simply FORCES it into their hand.